SALT PIG
Lukas and Ellie really hate washing greens. We may be two professional cookbook writers, but when the aprons come off, we eat quesadillas for dinner more often than we might like to admit. Real home cooking is improvisational, intimate, surprising, creative, sometimes mundane, sometimes memorable, and always best when debriefed with a pal. Topics include: dried mushrooms and where to use them, making stock out of arguable trash, the joy of broccoli pancakes, what not to bring to a dinner party, how we really clean our cast iron pans (even when people say not to), gauging the lifelessness of one’s sourdough starter, and a seemingly neverending discussion on how to pronounce fricassee. Join us as we get together to break down the flops, the good enoughs, and the pleasures and hilarity of home kitchen life.
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Elinor Hutton has been a writer, ghostwriter, editor, and publishing and culinary consultant since 2010. She’s worked on more than 25 books to date, including four New York Times bestsellers, most recently as the co-author of Gisele Bündchen’s Nourish. She’s also judged the James Beard awards twice, ran the test kitchen for a meal-kit company, and has worked in book packaging and design.
Lukas Volger is the author of six cookbooks, including Start Simple and Bowl, and has collaborated on numerous other cookbooks, including two New York Times bestsellers. Previously, he co-founded the award-winning queer food journal Jarry, and created a line of premium, fresh, and locally made veggie burgers called Made by Lukas. He lives in Brooklyn. www.lukasvolger.com
SALT PIG
Intentionality in the Kitchen
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Welcome to SALT PIG! After analyzing all sorts of home-cooking topics over these last 22 episodes (!), we marvel at how often we neglect certain basics and niceties when cooking day in and day out. As cookbook professionals, we are devoted to the details of our clients and our work; but when left to own devices, we can really phone it in and forget/refuse to make cooking as pleasant and fulfilling as it can be. So for our SALT PIG season finale, we explore if there's a way to make putting dinner on the table more of a practice than a task. What tiny, easy acts make a nicer experience for ourselves? Do we have the brainspace and time to prioritize joy and ease in the kitchen? Is there a price to “treating” ourselves to the right piece of equipment or a little extra care and attention? Being intentional just may be the secret (ingredient) to everything.
Happy summer, pals! We are taking a break until September. Write us and let us know what you’re up to. We’ll be back for season 2!
Discussed in this episode:
- Chicken cutlets dredged in Preserved Lemon Paste
- Jenna Helwig’s interview with Greta Podleski
- Lukas’ Snacks For Dinner
- The SALT PIG Lentil Salad Matrix
- Alice Medrich’s melted butter tart crust
- Full circle to our first SALT PIG episode: Food Waste vs Recipes
Welcome to Salt Pig, where two cookbook writers chat about the ups and downs of actual home kitchen life. What are we talking about this week, Ellie?
SPEAKER_01So it's our last episode of our first season of Salt Pig, and uh we're just letting ourselves relax a little bit and talk about kind of some lessons learned.
SPEAKER_00I feel like we both have learned a lot through these conversations.
SPEAKER_01A ton. And not only like my kitchen, my cooking and my kitchen life have I learned a lot, but I've I've seriously kind of learned a lot about myself. I know that sounds odd, but I'm I'm using kitchen towels like you wouldn't believe. So um I'm really I feel like a very changed person.
SPEAKER_00We already enjoy being in the kitchen, but we each have a tendency to, you know, we all I'm sure everybody can relate to this, those moments where you're doing things in a kind of a harried fashion, and then we're realizing that it's possible to step back, recenter, and then get back into the pleasurable parts of cooking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, how to enjoy it a little bit more. It doesn't actually take that much more time. It just takes that little bit of effort.
SPEAKER_00And it really attention, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it really makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's one that's one thing that we've learned. Um, so we're talking about that today.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's get into it. Our last episode of season one. Um, you can find all our old episodes that you might need to catch up on wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can also find them on Substack2 at saltpig.substack.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter there, which we will continue sending out on a probably sporadic basis over the summer. But uh every now and then you'll hear from us and until the fall where we kick things back off again. Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01I can't remember if I told you, but my nephew was visiting um, I guess last week or recently, and he stayed for like a whole um a whole week. And it was really fun to have him here. He's like 19 and he like eats a lot. He's really into food, and we went to like, you know, these fun restaurants he's really into like trying new foods and stuff. So it was really fun to cook for him because I don't know, I f I it it was one of these things where I felt like I I was really determined to like have some family dinners where like the k the kids were so excited that he was here and it was sort of a crazy week, and I was like, you know, no matter what everyone's doing during the day, we can all like have some dinners together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I would imagine too that you're like you're a food person, you're like, oh, this is something that I am like uniquely qualified to give a steer for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Although I try, I think if I think that to myself too much, then I get like Oh, then you clamp up. Yeah, then I clamp up. But I was like, yeah, I was so I was sort of framing it like I'll just make some dinner, you know. But I was I was trying to be a little bit more engaged with it, and it was um it was really fun to do that, and it was making me think a lot of you, because I feel like so much I've gotten so slapdash, and so, you know, the problem that's appearing in front of me is is the problem I'm gonna deal with. That's sort of like the stage in life that I'm in. But I think I can move out of that stage a little bit if I took a little bit more, you know, if I tried a little harder. So I was trying a little harder and I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna make a really nice dinner. So we had this um this special uh it wasn't canneroli. Is that the type of risotto rice? One of the fancy ones.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, it's something like that. I'm not even gonna try it. I know what you're talking about though.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't, I don't think it was arboreo. It was one of those fancy ones. Yeah, yeah. That I had gotten when I was visiting my sister in Italy last year. And I was like, so I was thinking of you first of all because I was like, I'm not gonna hoard this. I'm gonna use it before before it goes bad.
SPEAKER_00For anybody who hasn't heard this episode, Ellie and I worked through a there's like two types of people. There's like the ones that use up their fancy things right away because they're excited to put them to use, and the ones that like hoard them for forever because there's never an adequate opportunity to like for the okay, so anyway, it's never the right thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you can guess, I mean, you are like crack it open like the moment you open it, right? Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tom is like that too. He's like, you know, if you give him like a shirt, he like pulls the tags off before he like tries it on, and I'm like, wait, it's a fit. Hold on. Yeah, I'm like, I'll keep the tags on in the closet until I've like you know gotten way too chubby for it. And then I'm like worn it a couple times just to make sure. Exactly, exactly. So I was like, I'm gonna use this special rice. You know, damn it. I'm gonna make this yummy risotto. Oh, and since, you know, Max is here, I'm gonna also like make some chicken. Like normally I feel like I'm like one dish and a salad. I'm like, that'll but I'm like, I'm gonna go a little, I'm gonna make two dishes and a salad. So I made this risotto and then I was like, I'll make some chicken cutlets because I feel like what 19-year-old doesn't like like a chicken cutlet. But it was really fun to throw myself into it a little bit. I made these chicken cutlets. Um, I know we talk about preserved lemon paste all the time on this, but um one of my favorite things. It's my favorite thing. And so I when I was like breading these chicken cutlets, which I never do, um, I just recently like ground up a jar of preserved lemon, so I had sort of a fresh jar. So I was like, I'm gonna take a big blob of this. Again, also I'm not gonna hoard it because I know it's gonna go bad eventually in the fridge. Like it will last for a pretty long time in the fridge, but it won't last forever, so let's just run with it. So I put a big blob of this preserved lemon paste in with the eggs, and then uh like as part of the you know, the egg dredge, and then in the dry dredge, I put nutritional yeast, which I learned from you. Um and breadcrumbs and maybe some Parmesan cheese, I can't remember, and like really season really seasoned it well, like really made an effort to season it well. Um and man were they good. The preserved lemon was really fun, and the coating was really yummy. Um and then I made this risotto, which um I was like gonna just use better than bouillon, and then I was like, oh, let me paw around in the freezer and see if I actually have any chicken broth. And I did, but I didn't have time to defrost it. I guess I could have like put it in the microwave or something or put it in a pot. But instead, I was like, I, you know, sauteed like an onion and put the rice in and toasted it and then put some wine in. And it was just at that moment, again, like absolutely like minute to minute cooking, like not having the foresight at all. I was like, oh, do I have any chicken broth? So I had this huge quart-size ice block of chicken stock that I found in the fridge. So then I just dumped it in the Dutch oven as sort of a self-saucing risotto. And it kind of it didn't like, I wouldn't exactly recommend it, but it kind of worked. Like I had to add some water to like keep keep it from sticking on the bottom because it was melting kind of slowly. But um, but it kind of worked. So it was and it was very nice to just feel like I was taking a little bit more care. I don't give myself a chance to do a good job sometimes because I've like shrunken it down to its essence. So it was nice to be like, no, I'm gonna take a minute and I'm gonna put some salt and pepper in the dredge, and like I'm gonna take a minute and like I don't know, toast the rice and the risotto, which normally I do that. But like, you know, I I feel like I'll shortcut myself into just like something totally mundane.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you think like I you you don't I'm sorry, not you, but general, you uh don't actually have time to like do this extra little step.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00And me actually it's not it doesn't ask actually ask that much of you.
SPEAKER_01No, and and it's also like I think that's what brought me so much joy about it is I was like, actually, maybe this does take one minute longer. It's minor, the the the extra that it takes, but it really made it a lot better. And and it also just brought me a lot more joy. I was like, oh, I'm I'm capable of making some really yummy chicken cutlets that are actually like kind of different from some other chicken cutlets I've made. I was like, this is again like an outlet for creativity, and it's uh, you know, something I get to kind of play around with. And um I feel like something.
SPEAKER_00And that's a real skill of yours too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I was like, I I don't let myself do it sometimes because I think I don't have the time or I don't have the brain space, and that's often true, but I was like, the only person who's gonna give me the time or the brain space is me. Um I was like, so we eat five to five minutes later. I mean, it was a more complicated dinner than I normally make, but I was like, I don't know, I'm making dinner, so why not make an ice dinner?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, and that is just it just it comes down to that attention, yeah. You know, like that's what makes that's the ingredient, that's the key ingredient of good cooking.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00You can't really like skip that part.
SPEAKER_01I know, and it's funny. I mean, doing this podcast had not to be too self-referential, but it's really made me realize how much I sometimes don't give myself that like that space in the kitchen. Yeah. Cooking can be so utilitarian, and that's part of what it is. It's you know, to feed you and it's to get the job done and it's to get something on the table and have it be nutritious or whatever. But it's like, you know, I think you probably feel this way too. It's also a joy. And I'm like, sometimes I cut that piece out because it's the piece that I can cut out. Like I have to feed everybody. But if it's it was really nice to be like to give myself that back and to make a little bit more of an effort. It's a funny thing to think about because I I think like having kids and you know, having these distractions and stuff, like you start to think you just have to like whittle yourself down to Yeah, this is my life now, no time to make sure I season the breading properly. Literally. And yeah, it was it was and it it starts to feel like I mean, especially with cooking, I was like when you make a bunch of meals that are like fine, but then the but it's not that fun to eat either, in addition to not being that fun to cook, and like it's that's all fine, and not everything has to be really special, but it's nice to try to have things be special, actually. They don't have to take hours, they don't have to use special ingredients. But it was I was like, Oh, right, it's nice to have things be special.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh that's so nice. I mean, I find too that you have to like at the outset decide like okay, I'm actually gonna apply myself here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because when I go into the kitchen, and I know my my circumstances are different, but when I go into the kitchen and it's like I gotta eat, I don't know what it's gonna be, I'll figure something out, just like roll with it, and there's dishes in the sink and there's like clutter all over, and it just it cr it makes my head feel totally chaotic. And yes, and then you sit down and there's no like sense of like reward at the end of it, it's just like okay, eat, let's move on, done, and somebody's gonna have to like clean up afterwards. But when I stop and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna prepare myself for this now and set on my cutting board, anchor it down with the little wet pip paper towel underneath. I'm gonna make sure there's not dishes everywhere, I'm gonna sort of like prepare my ingredients, which doesn't actually have to take as much time as it sounds like it'll take as I'm describing it, but it makes all the difference. And then it does turn the meal at the end of that, you know, effort um into a reward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's that um what's the word I'm trying to think of where people are where you're being more deliberate with your time?
SPEAKER_00Intentionality?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like the intention. I I kind of I'm really feeling the value of being intentional lately. And I yeah, I think I have you to thank for that.
SPEAKER_00Well, it also could be that your kids are getting to an age where you're able to like not have to monitor it for everyone.
SPEAKER_01I think I have like, yeah, after seven years of being in like somewhat emergency mode, I feel like I'm I'm realizing in the last few months like it's not an emergency. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I can that's so good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is good. It is good. And like, like anything though, like you can you can interpret anything as an emergency if you want. So it's it's taking this kind of self um I'm having to to push myself into realizing it's not an emergency anymore. But it's yeah, it's good. And it's and you're so right, like like setting up that kitchen environment to be nice, again, it doesn't take any time. I'm always thinking that where I like don't put any music on or listen to a podcast or like an audiobook. Like when I do that, when I like when I pour myself a glass of water, like yeah, or I was uh again, like when I put ice in my water, I'm like, hey, hey, really treating myself, but it feels that's sort of how bare bones, I feel like I've gotten so bare bones, so it's really good to be like, I can put ice in my water, it's not gonna take any extra time. I've been putting ice in my kids' thermoses, you'll be glad to know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, good.
SPEAKER_01All right, well, yeah, I think they appreciate it. And I'm like little luxuries, it's the tiny luxuries.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's kind of similar. I just had a dinner party, or well, dinner party. I had friends over for dinner this weekend, sort of last minute, and um some friends who all work in fashion. Like the most stressful dinner guests are oftentimes like food people for me. Yeah, because I feel like the stakes we've discussed that before, but then fashion people also kind of stress me out, even though these are such lovely people, and I know that they are just like grateful for be, you know, enjoying my meal and stuff. But I did all I I allotted myself sort of like two hours in the middle of the afternoon to basically get everything done. And um, just as we're describing it, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna like set out my workstation, grab all gather all my ingredients, properly make the shopping list so that I make sure I'm not forgetting anything. And like one of the steps along the way that would really help me just kind of like keep my head clear and keep the stress low, not that it was like super, it was actually all enjoyable, but just cleaning off the cutting board periodically. You know how? Do you ever do this where you just like sort of scrape all the debris over to one side, or then you're like you've say you need like two knives, and there's like the paring knife or the serrated knife, and that's on one side of the cutting board, or there's just like a spent lemon wedge or something. There's just like stuff in the way. Yes, and it's five seconds just to be like, let's just clean slate, start the new task. And that act that thing alone just like made it makes all the difference. And I know that in theory, this is like something that I advocate for, and I've worked in restaurants, and I know that this is like the proper way to be a professional cook, but I can't even maintain that all the time. I have to like go into it with uh a pretty intentional mindset.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, yeah. Well, the other thing, and we've you know, I how which cutting board are you using?
SPEAKER_00I know, I gotta get a big one. You gotta get a big one. This this is my largest one, but it's probably only like 18 by 12 or something like that. Oh yeah. I I want to I want a really big one.
SPEAKER_01A giant one. I mean, it's still I'm I'm still I still have that same problem where I'm sort of like, yeah, I need to kind of clear the decks. But having a huge cutting board, you do get to make a little bit more space for yourself, and it does give you some some breathing room.
SPEAKER_00So good. And then it's like the Airbnb thing when you all you have is a cutting board that's like the size of a paperback book at your droids. Or you could like cut eleven and a half. That's it. Yeah, exactly. My cutting board is definitely bigger than that, but I love those Nancy Myers style cutting boards where it's just like cut chunk.
SPEAKER_01Yes, lay that thing down in the middle of this countertop. No, but I I'm so I'm so with you. And I think it's like I don't know, making things making things nice is really valuable. You can just get caught up in this stuff, and I think especially with cooking, it's like you know, things don't have to be nice, I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they don't. But I was just having this conversation with a friend too, who was I mean, she has a pretty demanding job but logs in at like 8 30 or 9, and she has two young kids, and she's like we're talking she's talking about how like she gets up early and she goes for a walk and she lives up in Maine and she has the dog and she has her garden and stuff. And I don't know if cooking is your thing, it is there it's not just gonna magically the circumstances to like enjoy your cooking aren't going to like magically appear before you. You kind of have to like create them.
SPEAKER_01And I guess, I guess like like I'm always like, oh yeah, my priorities, like if someone asked me my priorities in terms of like, you know, some this type of thing, I'd be like, absolutely my priorities are making dinner for my family. Like that's a huge thing. But yeah, the circumstances in which I make I make dinner for my family and the way that I do it, I do have more control over than I think I realize. Like I feel like that's kind of enough, and then that's sort of asking already asking so much, you know. So it's it's it's good to to lean into that a little.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking about you um because I'm in this like home stretch of finishing my cookbook.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And like through our conversations, I've also realized like we both sort of like we work, we both work in food media, but I think as a recipe developer, I'm like much more in like the nuts and bolts of like what's happening, what's trending, who's who, what's I mean, like I think that stuff is really fun, and I love like paying attention to what's happening moment by moment. But um I think that there can be a tendency to like when you're just like so wrapped up in what's the cool thing right now, what's everybody talking about, what's the ingredient of the moment, what is what's the viral recipe going around, that you forget that like that's not actually how people cook every day. And like I think that through one of the things that keeps coming up between you and me is like, especially at the end of our episodes when we're like, what's for dinner? Like, if I don't have a recipe that I'm actively working on for dinner, I'm like, oh, I don't I feel like a little bit of pressure there because the reality is it's gonna be one of the five things that I like make whenever I'm like you know, like it's not I'm not like the preserved lemon coated chicken or something. It's like maybe that could be something I would make regularly, but like not a not the first time. Right. Instead, it's gonna be a bowl of beans and a garque sandilla, yeah, some toasted bread. It really is gonna be some like pretty basic food, and I'm gonna really enjoy it. But um, so anyway, that's like that's really been hitting me with this with the book that I'm working on because I'm like, what do people what do home cooks actually want? I've been thinking a lot more about like the value of recipes. And like the value may not be in the new novelty, it may be more in the sort of like weathered and worn and and really yeah, uh dependable type of yes.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. The thing is, I I think I think there's kind of everybody out there. I mean, I think there are people who do just want to cook the newest thing, and that's it's like fashion, it's like any of the stuff. There are people who want to follow trends or who wanna be doing what other people are doing, and you know, being able to sort of talk about that stuff, and then I think there's the people who have sort of a different practice around it. And I thought that was really interesting what Steve was saying last week. Oh, yeah. The idea of just like this practice of cooking and what it means to just be engaged with it week after week, day after day, what it means, how you're doing it, how you're feeling when you're doing it, but like what you're cooking and what you're expecting from that cooking, it's not necessarily gonna like blow you out of the water with excitement. But but it's delicious and it's nutritious and it's you know maybe satisfying some other things. And I I'm so curious about sort of what the again we've talked about this because cookbooks speak in this currency of recipes, I don't know what other currencies people are sort of willing to play around in. Because I know I know there it there just has to be other ways to do it. I think I've found it really interesting to think about cooking sort of more as a practice. And I think that's that's what I was sort of playing with. I was like, yeah, like this this does something for me for it's something I want to give my family, it's something I it's important to me nutritionally to like be cooking home cooked food. It's also something that's sort of mine. Like it's a creative outlet, it's time that I'm listening to an audiobook, maybe, and I'm you know, thinking about things. But in terms of cookbook writing, I think that's that gets that gets tricky. And I'm I'm really interested to see. Do you have in this book like how are you setting up the recipes?
SPEAKER_00I started out thinking that I was going to do something very different and a little bit more try try to convey the versatility of each recipe and how the they really are at the And they're in their bones, there's kind of like a few components that come together. But then the more I did that, the more I'm like, this is like killing the fun of cooking because it's like making it all seem so much more complicated than it is. I I I didn't really land on a way to do that that made it feel as simple as it's supposed to feel. Yeah. And so I ended up there in fact I'm right now going through the process of even like further simplifying stuff because I think that's what makes a good cookbook.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is like a recipe that is easy to follow and has something, has some kind of like takeaway in it that hopefully somebody will make their own.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah. I loved what Steve said about just the act of making beans is the process of learning how to cook. Like if you make if you make beans, you're gonna learn how to cook. And I yeah, that sort of like reframed recipes for me as like, okay, well, this is maybe you are following a recipe, but if you continue to do this, the recipe will end up being like part of the process of like learning how to cook. It's the the practice of cooking that's gonna like teach you how to cook. And it's never really over. You never like arrive at a right at a place where you're like, I'm a cook now. You're just like it's something that you just do.
SPEAKER_01It's tricky though, because in a book, I think I mean it depends on who you think your audience is, and are they beginners or are they yeah, are they sort of what are they looking to get out of it? I mean, I think in your cookbooks, do you feel like people are more beginners or kind of all over the place?
SPEAKER_00I I think of my readers as like Trader Joe's shoppers. Yeah like that's sort of the scope of ingredients where they're sort of aware of things like Teresa paste or I don't know, there's like a little bit of uh an awareness of like the distinctions between different cuisines and stuff, and a willingness to experiment with flavors and things. And yeah, I I doubt that for very many people I'm like the only cookbook that they own. I I I feel like I write cookbooks for people who have several cookbooks, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So probably not like super beginners.
SPEAKER_02Huh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There was this interview I read recently. Um I can't remember her name, but she's got like the top-selling cookbook for like a year or something in Canada. And she just published she self-published this book, the salads.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And um it was a great interview. It was a great interview I read that Cookbookery Collective is uh Jenna Hellwigs. And um, she said she made this comment that was like, Oh, I think a lot of recipe developers are like writing recipes for other recipe developers and they're forgetting about what they their readers actually want. And that stuck with me so much because I'm like, I wasn't actively trying to impress other recipe developers, but I'm aware of what they're doing, and I'm aware of trying to like distinguish myself from like what other people are doing. And then I think that's essentially the same thing as what she was saying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That but it's kind of hard to, I don't know, it's really hard to like have that sense that you're writing a valuable cookbook if it doesn't feel like everything that you're putting in there is comp is like original and like new and that you can't really find somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01If you though I do think your cookbooks conceptually are very helpful for people. There's also like so many different levels of how they're being used. You know, snacks for dinner, the concept of that is so strong that that's that's a lesson that you're you're giving people permission right off the bat before they even open the book of like you can do this for dinner and this could really work for you. And I think that would be really valuable for people before they even get into like the specific, you know, dips that you're making or the specific crackers that you make, but the idea that that you could do this for dinner, that's like one way of reading your cookbook that would be valuable before you even get into the recipes. I that's one thing I love about cookbooks is that they are valuable beyond just the recipes. So I think like I think that's a good thing. It's like a perspective. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're in this funny position because you also help people work on their own cookbooks and then you're coming back and working on your own. But yeah, I I don't think you have anything to worry about in that in that frame. But it's interesting that like that instead of I think other people probably go in the opposite direction where they're saying, like, oh, I have these sort of basic ideas and I need to juzge them up a little bit. I think it's interesting that you're coming back to making them more simple. I think that could be pretty compelling.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. That was the that was this dinner party too the other night. I wanted to make recipes, my recipes, um, because I wanted to like test them. Yeah. And so I did this like a lentil salad, which is not to be too referential, but um it's been a lentil journey the past few weeks.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, how are you feeling on lentils?
SPEAKER_00Good. This one was great. I actually kind of used our our lentil, I referenced our lentil salad matrix. Oh that's a pretty good formula there for a lentil salad, I gotta say. Great. But I made that lentil salad, and that was a big hit. And then I made this like peanut butter tofu dip thing, which I've shared in my newsletter. It's just like such a stupid simple dip, but it's so good, and everybody always loves it. And these well, Justin, who came over, is like, I really am not a tofu person. If you had told me that this is tofu, I probably wouldn't have eaten it, but where's the recipe? I want to make this again.
SPEAKER_02I'm so cool.
SPEAKER_00And it's so nice to hear that. And then I was like going back to my manuscript, and um, like the peanut butter tofu dip was something that because so this book is sort of focused around like a nutritional, like protein and fiber everyday eating. And the way I was using it in the book was like, okay, this is like a component of a dinner. This is like a protein, like you pile stuff on top of it. And I was like, but the best way to eat this is like as a dip with crudite and like sitting around the coffee table with your friends, and you know, the crackers and a bowl of potato chips on the side. And it's like I feel like sometimes in my work I have to like shoehorn these like good recipe ideas into something that is like serving a concept of a book. Yeah, exactly. And um, and so that was I think that's kind of where I am with like, let me actually like be real about this peanut butter tofu dip. It's like, sure, you can like pile a bunch of roasted vegetables on there and stuff, and it's gonna be great, but like the best way to eat it is as a dip and as an appetizer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting to think about how that that journey. What what did you put in the lentil salad?
SPEAKER_00So I actually the day that we aired our ranch our Steve Sando episode, I got a delivery of bean club beans. And in there was a pouch of, I guess they're American grown, but they're Dupuis style French lentils.
SPEAKER_01Oh, are these the light brown ones?
SPEAKER_00No, they're not the Italian those, um there he has a Spanish one and an Italian one. These are like the French style, like dark green ones, but I think he grows them here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so I cooked those and I cooked them. I didn't would never tell Steve to face this, but I did the thing where I added the bouillon to the lentils as I cooked them. And then um I served them with some the crunchy thing was some roasted pistachios, and I threw some chopped up dates in there, and a couple handfuls of arugula that I got at the farmer's market, and then uh a very simple vinaigrette that was like a shaken up one. I don't know, it was just really good. And it was like one of those things that I made in the afternoon. I just like because I remember I you mentioned recently too you when you make these pasta salads. Oh, yeah. Uh or like uh you don't put it in the fridge because the fridge seems to do something weird to the flavors and the texture. Yes, and I was like, oh yeah, that's gonna happen to these lentils if I put this in the fridge. Yeah. So I just left them out on the countertop to like marinate for a few hours and then like mixed in the lettuce afterwards. It's just it was so good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, that's that's so true with lentils because they're so starchy, also. I'm sure they yeah, they get uh cold.
SPEAKER_00They didn't like glue up. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and then I did I made uh a roast chicken with a bunch of I we our herb garden is going crazy, so I made like a compound butter and I um tucked some of the butter under the skin and roasted it, and then this outstanding lemon curd tart for dessert that I just love a lemon tart so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So like uh was it like a um a regular crust?
SPEAKER_00It wasn't like a Yeah, it was crust, it was like a sweet uh that's a brise or whatever. Yes, exactly. I would thank you for saying that because I was I was gonna butcher that pronunciation. Um from the I there's a recipe in like an Alice Medridge book where she uses melted butter that makes it really easy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, really? Interesting. Does it still get does it have more of like a cookie texture or is it more like uh yeah, it's a little bit like crumbly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um it's nice. It has like a nice little snap to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and then the curd is the Alice Waters one from Simple Food. Yum. The art of simple food with uh Meyer Lemons, which happened to be around for some reason. Yeah. Gosh. So no, it was good. It was a good dinner too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, yeah, talk about like making just making some effort. I mean, it's and it's those little those little things can really change something where you're like, I don't know, yeah, not refrigerating your salad, maybe, or letting it marinate that little extra few minutes or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yes. One of the things too that I know you we had a whole episode about um food waste.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And like and I definitely do everything I can to not waste food, but I know that I'm not nearly as uh as good at it as you are.
SPEAKER_01As cuckoo as me.
SPEAKER_00Well, not cuckoo, but like you I know that you don't waste food like at all. And I go through periods where I'm like, I'm sorry, there's just like not unfortunately I'm gonna have to cut my losses here. Yeah. And uh things are gonna get tossed or composted or whatever. But I feel like in talking to you, I become more aware of like, okay, what would Ellie do here? She would figure out she would she would turn this into a game, she would enjoy this, and there would be no wasted food. And so that's been something that I feel like if you get into the habit of like I need to clean out the fridge or go through the CRISPR, and you're like, toss, toss, toss. But if you don't have some kind of like audit system in place to be like, oh, do you actually need to toss that? You're gonna just unthinkingly throw it into the compost. And so I feel like you have imposed an auditing system on me.
SPEAKER_01Oh, good. Oh, I'm glad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's very nice. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Although on the opposite edge of that spectrum, I think I mentioned these crazy daikon pickles I made recently.
SPEAKER_00And I made like for the like Korean beef.
SPEAKER_01For the Korean beef thing. They were great. I pulled them out last night because we were like eating leftovers and I was eating a quesadilla, and I was like, oh, I'll have a side of some Daikon pickles. Anyway, it's this huge jar of them. So I've been like chipping away at them. Um and I noticed last night it's sort of gross, but I noticed last night that there was a little bug, like a teeny tiny bug, in there. And I I don't know if it just flew in like a like a fruit fly, but I couldn't tell. And I was sort of in this mode, because everyone in my household has been like sick for like weeks. I was in this mode where I was like, I'm not gonna make myself or anyone eat these pickles that have this bug in them. I was like, I'm sure I could just fish this bug. I mean, it's teeny tiny. I'm sure I could take this bug out, and I'm sure it would be fine. Whatever. I'm sure we eat bugs all the time. But I was like, I was just in this mode where I was like, we're already eating leftovers. I guess these daikon pickles are being composted. I put the kids to bed, he had done all the dishes. I went downstairs, we were watching the Nick's game. I mean, barely, but um, but I was like, you know, and we were doing some tasks on our computer and we kept he walked through the kitchen and he was like he was like, oh, I think we left one of the like burners on. And I was like, oh, oh, like it's like it sort of smelled like gas. And I was like, ooh, that's troubling. But all the burners were off. And I was like, that's troubling. We had the dryer on, and the dryer is a gas dryer. And I was like, gosh, I hope it's not like the dryer. So we like went down to check on that. We still smelled it. I was like, I really don't want to like call the fire department right now. Like, I don't know what you do if there's like a gas leak. But we kept he kept being like, Yep, it's right over here, right by the stove. And I was like, Oh, what is it gonna do? And then luckily he was like sort of sniffing around, and he was like, he was like, you know what? It's the daikon pickles and the compost.
SPEAKER_00Oh I was trying to like figure out how these two things were gonna link. I was like, this is crazy.
SPEAKER_01But it was so weird. They do kind of smell like a gas leak. It's really weird.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like the um sulfurous C type of Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I was so relieved. It was one of those problems where I was like, I don't want to just like go to bed and be like, hope we don't all die, you know. Um but I was like, I don't really know how I'm gonna solve this. But yeah, what would you have done in the situation if you saw a tiny fruit fly in your life?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I would just scoop it out and just try to like not let anybody see it happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Behind the scenes. Yeah, I probably I was in sort of a weird mode where I was just like, I guess I'm trashing it, but it felt very it felt very, very weird.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, back to your what you were saying in the beginning. Just this morning I was making breakfast and it was I was like trying to do it in like a short window of time because we were gonna get started. I had another thing I needed to do, and I was like making breakfast, and we had an avocado that's sort of just about to turn.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And everything was just about ready to serve. And um, and then I had to get like the peel off of the avocado, but I hadn't yet used a spoon. And I was like, oh god, I do not want to have to like because also like the small spoons are they're like the hottest commodity.
SPEAKER_01Hot commodity.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what how this happens, but like somehow we have a full drawer of cutlery, and there's not a single small spoon left, even though like the dishwasher's just been emptied out. Right. I don't know how that happens. I was like, I don't want to wait. So I stood there for it, must have been like an extra three to four minutes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00For something that would have taken 15 seconds. But it's like peeling off the avocado peel, and it just like kept coming off and crumbles. And ended up looking like all picked over and gross. And I was like, Lucas, if you just grabbed a freaking spoon, you could have washed it, you could have used it, washed it, put it back away in less time than this whole endeavor took.
SPEAKER_01Treat yourself. Yeah, that's my but that's that's it's so it's so relevant. Yeah. Oh my God. You'd be so proud of me. How many dish towels I've been going through, Lucas?
SPEAKER_00Oh, good.
SPEAKER_01So many dish towels.
SPEAKER_00That's a game changer.
SPEAKER_01It's it is, and it's it's the treat yourself. I'm like, I'm like, this is dirty, so I'm not gonna be annoyed that it's dirty. I'm not gonna be like, how did this dish towel get so dirty? Or I'm gonna make this dish towel dirtier before I deal with it. It's so, it's so like such a weird mind frame.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just get it out. Now I'm gonna put it in the hand for it. Yes. Oh, so nice. I love that. My my stash of clean uh kitchen towels just never, it's it never, I never get to the bottom of it. So it's just like never a thought that like, oh, I'm gonna run out of kitchen towels if I don't make this one last a little while longer. It's just like it's dirty, it's gone. Like pretty much every night I like take all the towels and put them in the hamper.
SPEAKER_01I was talking with my sister, my sister about that, and she was like, she's like, How many dish towels do you think Lucas has? And I was like, I was like, I think he has a lot. She was like, Yeah, it sounds like it.
SPEAKER_00I think it's probably like 20, 25.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I go through like two a day, I think. Yeah, yeah. And then do the laundry once a week.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But yeah, now that this is our last, because I we haven't said this, but maybe it's why we've been so reminiscent this episode. But this is our last episode for the season. For season one. Yeah. Yeah. Season one. Don't panic, everybody. Um, yeah, for season one, we have a season and it's this is it. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. It's been really, it's been so it's been sort of like going to therapy, and it's been really some kind of kitchen therapy. Yeah, yeah. I'm really grateful for it. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh, thank you, Ellie. I love that we actually made this happen too. We yeah, I mean, we talked about doing something and then finally landed on this, and I feel like the second we started doing this, it was like, oh, this is it. Yeah, this is yeah, this doesn't have to be um it it's very natural. It's what we'd be doing anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think even if we weren't recording right now.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I hope you've got a good answer because this is gonna be the last one for a little while.
SPEAKER_01You may have to help me think through it a little. Yeah, dinner tonight. Um I did the same old, same old story. I bought some chicken thighs. Um I don't know what I was gonna do with them. Maybe like marinate them in some yogurt, you know, like in spices. Do you ever do that?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't, but uh, I remember um Jenny Rosenstruck has one of like she has a very popular recipe for like a yogurt-marinated chicken thigh for like grilling them.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, yeah, for grilling them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't know why that crossed my feed recently.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. It is, I mean, it's such a handy thing to do with chicken, and it does really make them extra delicious. So I was thinking about maybe doing something like that with like, you know, some cumin, coriander, garamaside, lemon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, ooh, yum. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then like flatbreads and some of those. Maybe you can maybe it's time to fish those daikon pickles back out of the compost.
SPEAKER_01Get those gassy smelling pickles back out. Somehow I have a thousand cucumbers in the fridge, so maybe, yeah, maybe I'll make like a little talk about it being more intentional. Maybe I'll even get out like a little mandolin and like shave some cucs, make a little cuc salad. My mom used to make one that was like, I feel like it was like sugar vinegar dill. Oh, yeah. Like that.
SPEAKER_00I had one of those growing up too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that was always I loved that when I was growing up. Me too.
SPEAKER_00But it was kind of like drippy.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, very watery.
SPEAKER_00With with like sweet onion in there as well.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's right. Maybe I'll maybe I'll make that. I wonder how much sugar it was like white vinegar, do you think?
SPEAKER_00White vinegar and I feel like the way my mom didn't make that, but I remember one of my aunts would make it, and I I don't think it was that much sugar. I don't remember it being sweet. I remember it being like more acidic and just quenching than anything else. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I always do now one of those like smashed cucumber salads with like the sort of Japanese-y type. And um they're always so good if you if have time to like salt them and drain them first.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00It gives them a little bit more of a dense type of structure.
SPEAKER_01So you slice them, you salt them, you put them in like a colander.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you smash them. You like these are for like those Persian cucumbers. You like smash them with the broad side of the knife and then toss them with some salt and then mix in some that toss them in a vinaigrette.
SPEAKER_01Okay, like a rice wine vinegar.
SPEAKER_00Rice wine, a little soy sauce, maybe a little toasted sesame oil, a little bit of sugar or sweetener of some sort.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that sounds good. And maybe I'll go a little more Japanese. If I did that with the cukes, what could I do with a chicken? It's like a sesame seed. Maybe it's a um sesame seeds. That might be fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What are the um is a kaya's like the street like the skewers and stuff? Maybe some one of those chicken skewer type things.
SPEAKER_01That's a good idea. Okay, maybe I'll do that. That sounds like more fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Do you guys have a gas grill or do you do a gas grill?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Which I've I've now kind of come around to I normally I just let Tom grill, but I've been occasionally going out there and doing it myself, and I'm like, it's pretty fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I I didn't grow up grilling at all, but we have one now, and I'm like, oh. And it's also like this is just food and heat. Yeah. I don't I in my mind it was like so much more complicated. And I feel like being a grill master is such a thing. And then I know that charcoal grilling is a very different approach, but and there's more to know about how to like manage the embers and stuff, but gas grilling is really not that different from any other kind of cooking.
SPEAKER_01I feel like, yeah, I feel like I've sort of been mansplained out of it, kind of, you know, where I'm just like, I can't grill, you know.
SPEAKER_00I know. My family was so that way. It's like getting home from dinner, mom's done all the cooking and prepping, and it's like, dad, time to grill.
SPEAKER_01But dad's making dinner, right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which she's very good at doing. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it is it is a real skill. Like, Tom, I think I mentioned this on here, maybe. Tom's gotten so good at grilling chicken that I'm like, and I'm because I'm maybe no surprise. I'll just sort of put it on there and then I like go off and do something at like go fold some laundry or something, get very distracted, and like the chicken's perfectly yummy, but it's not like carefully cooked. I'm not like tending it out there. I'm like, oh, the chicken then like run out there and I'm like, you know, it's really nice when it's like really well done, you know, when it's like juicy and I'm always like, well, these will work. You know, put some yogurt on that. They'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00I was reading something recently to because I mean I feel like my I just don't have a whole lot of I've I've got so much experience cooking vegetables that meat is not necessarily it's not like a novelty so much, but I just everything there's like one or two ways to do the the the animal proteins that we eat. Maybe there's just less curiosity about it on my part. Yeah. But I was then reading an interview with um do you know the British cookbook author, Ed Smith?
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00He I don't know exactly what his background is, but he has a new book out called Peckish, and it's all like chicken recipes. Oh, cool. And he was talking about how uh when you grill chicken, you basically I mean, I always the thing that I want is like the char on the you know, like I want that kind of flavor on the grill. But like if you want to give chicken or I guess anything that you're cooking over flame, the char um, you first cook it over indirect heat to get it like juicy and tender, and then put it over the direct heat afterwards. I'm sorry, this is a completely obvious technique that, but it was like new to me, and I was like, oh, that actually explains everything. Because you want it to cook a little bit more slowly and evenly over the lower heat, and then when you want to get the char, you just like blast it at the end. It's kind of like throwing something under the broiler for a couple minutes uh after it's finished cooking.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I mean, it's like all those lessons where I'm like, yeah, I know that. And like if I was reading someone's manuscript, I'd be like, you know, on that. But then when I'm like cooking my own chicken, I'm just like turn it on full blast and then walk away. Like, you know. It's cooked. Exactly. Exactly. No one's gonna get salmonella, so dinner's good. You know. What are you gonna make for dinner?
SPEAKER_00I have um it's very seasonally inappropriate, but um, there's this soup that I need to retest, and it's gonna make a whole bunch. And but I'm having that for dinner. I'm kind of looking forward to it. It's a white bean soup that has sauerkraut in it, and it's like a cheesy soup as well. Wow. It sounds kind of cool. It's actually really good. And I just it's been a while since I've made and I want to try it once more. But um I'm the sauerkraut like blended in?
SPEAKER_01Is it a blended soup or is everything cool?
SPEAKER_00It's it's sort of like a cabbage and bean soup, but the cabbage is like a sauerkraut thing. So it's got like a tangy quality, and then the beans are good and savory, and then um cheese and at the end and a little bit of like dairy in there. So it's it's more of a cold weather stick to your ribs kind of soup.
SPEAKER_01Sounds great for cold weather, but you know, temperatures dropped a little here and and like we all act like summertime you don't eat hot food. I mean, I eat hot food for dinner every night in the summer.
SPEAKER_00I know, me too. And this is the uh Vincent was talking to me about um our last episode with Steve, and he was like his answer is like all the all the best soups come from hot weather climates. Yes. So what what are you talking about? With it's too hot outside to cook beans? Right. Of course it's not too hot for the beans.
SPEAKER_01Always the right temperature for baits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. So we're gonna have some cozy, warm, creamy, hearty soup. Well, this is fun. Frozen out our first season. I'm kind of excited to start brainstorming season two.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00Between now and then you're gonna do some travel. I'm gonna finish writing my book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Come back with a bunch of new ideas and new inspirations.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure we'll send out some stuff over the summer. Who knows what we'll we're not gonna be totally out of touch. Maybe we'll have a newsletter to if you haven't signed up for the newsletter, you should go on saltpig.substack.com.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and you can find all our old episodes too if you if you want to catch up.
SPEAKER_01And if people have any ideas or any I don't know, feedback about what they love about salt pig, what they hate about salt pig, what we should be considering when we're thinking about season two, we truly would love to hear that stuff. Because it's just Lucas and I like, you know, yeah doing this on our own. So any any feedback.
SPEAKER_00Not to belabor it, but it's just been so nice when you do when we do hear from people, is it's such a reminder of why I enjoy talking about food with people in the first place. It's everybody does things a little bit differently, everybody's shaped by different types of experiences and cooking conditions, and it's so interesting to like to hear from people and to hear your thoughts and absolutely hear how you do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, so you can email us even. I mean, you can always go through Substack and leave a comment, and we're pretty good at um responding to that. But we also have saltpig podcasts at gmail.com if you guys want to write us, send us people send photos, people you can send us a long email if you want, we'll we'll read it, we'll respond.
SPEAKER_00Happily give us something to do this summer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, thank you again, everybody, for listening. Thank you for for supporting this thing. It's been really, really fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're really grateful. Thanks, guys, and we'll see you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Bye.
SPEAKER_00One last thing. If you enjoyed this episode or any of our episodes, could you do us a huge favor and leave us a rating and or a review on whatever podcast listening platform you are listening on right now? Um, that sort of thing really helps give us a little bit more visibility. It helps us find new listeners. And um, we really want to keep this thing going for as long as possible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really helps. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Till next time. Bye.
SPEAKER_01See you in September.
