SALT PIG
Lukas and Ellie really hate washing greens. We may be two professional cookbook writers, but when the aprons come off, we eat quesadillas for dinner more often than we might like to admit. Real home cooking is improvisational, intimate, surprising, creative, sometimes mundane, sometimes memorable, and always best when debriefed with a pal. Topics include: dried mushrooms and where to use them, making stock out of arguable trash, the joy of broccoli pancakes, what not to bring to a dinner party, how we really clean our cast iron pans (even when people say not to), gauging the lifelessness of one’s sourdough starter, and a seemingly neverending discussion on how to pronounce fricassee. Join us as we get together to break down the flops, the good enoughs, and the pleasures and hilarity of home kitchen life.
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Elinor Hutton has been a writer, ghostwriter, editor, and publishing and culinary consultant since 2010. She’s worked on more than 25 books to date, including four New York Times bestsellers, most recently as the co-author of Gisele Bündchen’s Nourish. She’s also judged the James Beard awards twice, ran the test kitchen for a meal-kit company, and has worked in book packaging and design.
Lukas Volger is the author of six cookbooks, including Start Simple and Bowl, and has collaborated on numerous other cookbooks, including two New York Times bestsellers. Previously, he co-founded the award-winning queer food journal Jarry, and created a line of premium, fresh, and locally made veggie burgers called Made by Lukas. He lives in Brooklyn. www.lukasvolger.com
SALT PIG
Striving for No-Stress Dinner Hangs
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Sometimes having people over can be kind of stressful. But as they say, you have to make the community you want, right? And we want dinner parties. We share the successes, the mishaps, the too-small chicken pot pie, the desserts to remember. We debate if it’s better to apologize for your own shortcomings or just zip it and hope no one notices. What can be done to make an evening no-fuss, tasty, and, most of all, fun for you, too? We have thoughts! Plus more strategies to get your spouse to bring leftovers for lunch.
Discussed in this episode:
- Lots of people eat chive blossoms
- Snacking Cakes by Yossy Arefi
- Nora Efron on Lee Bailey and the “Rule of Four”
- Julia Child’s My Life in France
- Amiel Stanek’s Homemade Onion Dip
Welcome to Salt Pig. We are two cookbook writers chatting about the ups and downs of actual home kitchen life. Lucas, what are we talking about this week?
SPEAKER_00This week we are talking about the no fuss, minimal stress ways that we like to have people over and to hang out with them. And so get into some of the types of things we like to cook, some of the sort of best practices for planning, some of the uh highlights, lowlights.
SPEAKER_02Things we ask our guests not to do.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes. Like namely, don't arrive early. Five minutes late is like the perfect amount of time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's the perfect. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00A perfect arrival time.
SPEAKER_02Ten minutes early, you catch us in a real pickle.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to you don't want to see it.
SPEAKER_02You can find new and old episodes wherever you listen to podcasts, and check us out on Substack2 at saltpig.substack.com where you can sign up for our fun weekly newsletter. All right, let's get started.
SPEAKER_00I've been meaning to ask you, um, how's your garden looking?
SPEAKER_02Ooh, um, it's looking pretty good, actually. The I mean, it's all it's basically all just lettuce, but it's a variety of different lettuces.
SPEAKER_00And they're grown and you can like harvest them in your eating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, and they're really going gangbusters suddenly. So it's been kind of fun because at first we were like, oh, we'll just have to snip here and snip there and make sort of a medley, but it's started growing where now we get to like focus on one particular type. So we had like a very lovely arugula salad the other night, and it's this crazy arugula. I can't remember whether we talked about this, that feels much like softer, and um, it's really good. It would never last, I think, in like a commercial environment because it's so weak, basically. But it's it's not quite as sharp tasting. It still has a bite, but it's not quite as sharp tasting, and is like the leaves themselves are much softer. So that's been a really nice thing to have on the side of meals.
SPEAKER_00Um are they like big long leaves or more?
SPEAKER_02A little bit more sort of floppier and bigger. It's strange. They're like a it's totally different. I wish I knew what kind it was. Um it's been really nice. And then the other one that's been coming in, I guess it's just like a like a romaine or some kind of I think it's like a romaine, like a baby romaine or some varietal of that. But um, what's been really fun, which we never do for some reason, um we uh marinated all this beef, sort of Korean style. Actually, I'll be honest, Tom bought it from the grocery store already marinated, which I was like very so sort of on the fence about. I was like, all right, I'm sure this will be really yummy. It was very expensive. I was like, I could do that. Um but then I have to say it was really delicious. I think it was like full of sugar and a bunch of other things that I probably would not have put in. Well seasoned with yeah, it was super well seasoned. Yeah. So I was like, all right, maybe I can't do that. But I was like, next time I'm gonna learn from the grocery store marinated stuff. And it was so we grilled it and then we um made rice and I bought this crazy daikon from the grocery store and made these daikon quick pickles. Oh, which were kind of weird but kind of fun. Uh just like a you know, simple vinegar, sugar, salt pickle. And we had like kimchi, and then we wrapped it all in the lettuce from the garden, and it felt like we were literally like in a restaurant.
SPEAKER_00I was like, this sounds so good.
SPEAKER_02It was so yummy. Uh oh, and I made this delicious like gochujang sesame oil, sugar, soy sauce sauce for us to like drizzle over it. And it was, yeah, it was a blast, I have to say. And everyone loved it. I mean, it's fun to like make your own, it's the same as like tacos or any of these other things, like make your own little bite. But so the same thing, the kids are like, Do you want my special bite, my best bite? And I'm like, sure. So we're all just like exchanging these little packages around the table. But it was super yummy and super fun. So now I'm determined to mimic the grocery store marinated meat.
SPEAKER_00Is the um romaine romaine is one that I wouldn't have thought to grow just because I like it's so ubiquitous. Yeah, exactly. And then I'm like, is this gonna even be special? Does does the homegrown romaine make a big difference?
SPEAKER_02It it does actually. Well, partially because just because we're picking it earlier. So it is like um more tender and less it's like I like the sort of watery crunch of romaine, but this has but this has like a little it's a little bit more balance between like the leaf and the rib, which gives that watery crunch. So it's yeah, it's it's I'd say it's more in balance. And and maybe the flavor's a little bit, a little bit more there. It's not the most flavorful lettuce, but if you have this very jazzy stuff on it.
SPEAKER_00And they're big enough and sturdy enough to like make these wraps.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yes. So yeah, so it was really fun. So the lettuce lettuce has been a real treat. I feel like I'm I'm looking at it with like I'm trying to make it a focus in a way that I haven't really done before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. How's your crack? Uh well, the herbs are doing really well. They have been taken off gone gangbusters, like put in. And I had this sort of fantasy of like, because I've got this planter box that's maybe like four feet long by a foot or so wide. Yeah. And I want it just to be like packed with herbs, yeah. And just like all kinds of wild and just see and just go crazy and just like stick my face in there and take a big whiff. But um, so that's been happening, and I threw like lemon verbena in there and lemon balm, and the chives are I've got all these chive blossoms that I'm like, oh, I gotta do something with the chive blossoms.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're gonna go with them.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, but I feel like I just saw something on Instagram that somebody's like, Oh, you want to jazz up a plate of rice, just top it with chive blossoms. I'm like, oh I can't let these things go to waste, um, but I'm really not sure what to do with them. I need to do some research.
SPEAKER_02I know. We've been putting them just in a vase because you know how they have like a slightly harder stem. It's like not a chive exactly, it's like a harder stem mixed in with that right. Kind of it. I mean, I think it's maybe just a really mature chive stem, but it feels like the texture's a little harder. So they actually stand up in a vase in a beautiful way. But interesting. Do you like eating flowers?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I don't have that much experience. I like like zucchini blossoms when you like stuff them with cheese and deep fry them or um like the what are the nasturiums, is that what they're called?
SPEAKER_02Is that um I can't remember how to say them.
SPEAKER_00But they but I I think they're more like color and more like visual interest than necessarily flavor, at least. But I don't do you do you have a thing that's they trouble me.
SPEAKER_02I mean I asked that in a very leading way. They I think it's that that sort of silky, fuzzy texture, even if it's not actually the texture of the flower, just like I perceive a flower as having that texture. Yeah, it kind of grosses. I think I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00That almost like silky kind of just like gets stuck on your tongue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I'm not that down with eating them, but I'm I think you can eat them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I think the chive blossoms, I want to do some more research, but I've they they're slightly diff they're like a different texture from like a petal-y type flower.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00So they might be hardier and they might like pickle or something. I don't know. I'm gonna maybe. I might just put them in a vase. They'd be really pretty that way.
SPEAKER_02They're very pretty in a vase.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because there's a bunch of them and they just like popped up. I don't know. It was just so amazing. I'm like, wow, the plants, these things are amazing. They they like want to grow. It's so pretty. Yeah. But um, all my other stuff. Then I so I went to the farmer's market last week specifically because I wanted to get really nice, like, little st um plant sproutlings.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I got some lettuces and I got some tomatoes and I got a pepper plant, and they're all just like the little ones that are probably two weeks old or something.
SPEAKER_02Right. So they've got a long way to go.
SPEAKER_00So they've got a long way to go. Um and I planted them and some cucumbers, I got some fun cucumbers. And I went up the next morning to water them, and a bird had come in and snatched every single thing up. And I was like, all right, well, I hope this bird, maybe this is part of some cycle. Cucumbers are gonna grow someplace else. Lettuce maybe in a place where it's needed. But um, it's very generous.
SPEAKER_02I'm just trying to like surrender to this.
SPEAKER_00So then I went and got seeds and I replanted some stuff to do like lettuces and I threw some. I don't know, we're just gonna see what happens.
SPEAKER_02But yeah. I think I need early enough that I I hope so, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I think I need to devise some type of bird deterrent. Maybe some netting or like netting. I've heard that those like metallic wind fan things that like if there's like sh like last year I had a bird come into my tomato plant and I just like wrapped some little pieces of tinfoil around the trellis.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_00And like the reflections I think discourage them. But I would imagine that they wise up to that pretty quick. So we'll see. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02You thought about a scarecrow?
SPEAKER_00No, I haven't. But um, I did think about one of those like fake owls, you know, yeah. That just like plant that in into this little like four foot by one foot planter and be like, try me.
SPEAKER_02It's got like a lot of aggressive attitude. Yes.
SPEAKER_00But I really hope I get some lettuces. I'm really excited about that. And I remember a farmer friend of mine years ago was like, oh, just plant and then you you know you um stage it so that you can kind of like cut lettuces all season long. And this would be such a great value for me because I eat salads all the time, and there's nothing better than when they're fresh clipped and so I know so, so, so fresh.
SPEAKER_02I know. Well, that's what we've been doing because it suddenly has sort of taken off, and it is it's also helpful just to remember then I remember that there's lettuce back there because I'm like every night I'm kind of like, yeah, we gotta go get get the salad.
SPEAKER_00Do the kids go harvest?
SPEAKER_02You know, they haven't. I it's the the last few days have been so nutty. They haven't done that. Tom's just done it. But um but I bet they would do it. They're very enthusiastic about garden work. Um basically, I mean, Henry l really likes to weed the garden because he gets um we pay him nickels to for like every, you know, like twenty weeds he gets, he gets like a nickel or something. So he or maybe the rates are slightly better than that, but he's very money motivated. Yeah, totally. But he's he's very motivated to go out there. So like every morning he'll be like, I got another five weeds, Mom. Like time to go get my nickel, and I'm like, Great. So but yeah, it would be nice for them to have a slightly more um productive time out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I'm just imagining like go grab some lettuce for dinner. It's like something so idyllic about that whole scenario.
SPEAKER_02For sure. For sure.
SPEAKER_00Especially like living where we live in in Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_02I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of it's kind of nice out there. Also, our peonies, we have these new peony bushes that from a few years ago, and they finally are blooming, and it is very thrilling to have like they bloom now, really.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I thought that was like a later season thing. Oh pretty.
SPEAKER_02I know, so it's really it's really exciting. The only thing that's kinda gross is I guess ants love peony like the heads of peonies before they open. So they're like teeming with ants, and then even when they open, there's still some ants on them. So I'm like, I'm gonna have to feel like we need to like dip them in some solution or some water or something, get all these. I just don't really want to bring ants in the house, but anyway, okay.
SPEAKER_00So we've had also in New York, we've had like this crazy heat wave. It's been like in the 90s for the last couple days, and then I think tomorrow and through we're recording this like right before Memorial Day weekend. The temperature's dropping like by 40 degrees. It's it's it's gonna be like in the 50s this weekend, going from the nineties today.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00But um all the warm weather does have me wanting to have people over and to like hang out and eat. And so today we were gonna talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Hanging out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do. We have a we can fit six people there.
SPEAKER_02Really? Oh, that's it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's one of my favorite things. We try to do that like as often as we can in the summer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We do it pretty often too, and it's um yeah, and it's like especially now, I don't know if your mosquitoes are out, or mosquitoes just just appeared. But um but before the mosquitoes appear, then it's really magical out there. Now it's it's still magical.
SPEAKER_00Gets a little intense. Well, that's one of the things about up on the roof, I think there's more distance between the mosquitoes. Yeah. I mean, there's still you still do get bitten, but I have a friend with her backyard, and every time I go to her house in the summer, I'm like, ugh, I want to like wear long johns and like completely cover my skin because it's they love mosquitoes love me for something.
SPEAKER_02They love me too. They love me. Love me up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking especially so I'm supposed to host my book club tomorrow. But I was trying to think of like some idyllic garden dinner that I could serve my book club that is like totally no fuss and would serve the book club and Tom and the kids. It's there's a lot of constraints. Like, ideally I'd make I'd make some enormous meal that then Tom and the kids could like eat and then go to bed, basically, and then me and the book club could sweep in and eat the rest of it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, what about a repeat of these like Korean?
SPEAKER_02That's true, actually.
SPEAKER_00We could probably do that with all kinds of different things.
SPEAKER_02That's true, because also Lord knows I have a million of these Daikon pickles left. Because Tom and I like them, but the kids thought they were kind of strange. Um That's a good idea. Okay. Well, we've got all the lettuces there too. I've got all the lettuces. I could show off the lettuces. I could show off the pickles. And yeah, okay, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_00I mean, in general, I love that type of food for entertaining where it's like maybe there's one thing like my rule of when I cook for people is like there's one thing that requires like some attention while you know everybody's over, but everything else can be kind of like done in advance. So you just or just like set out and left there, you know.
SPEAKER_02That's that's a really good point. Because yeah, I could I could like make the rice, wash the lettuce, get all these pickles and kimchi, I could make a sauce, and then I could just have to grill it. I guess not hopefully not in the pouring rain, but I could grill some beef or something.
SPEAKER_00Beef or chicken or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Tofu would probably be good for that too.
SPEAKER_02Probably would. Have you ever grilled tofu?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_00Um I mean, I feel like grilling tofu doesn't I if you use like a charcoal grill, if you want the smoke flavor, you gotta have like the actual wood. Actual stuff in there, yeah. Um but if it's a gas grill, you might as well just cook it in the kitchen. Yeah, exactly. Unless you're trying to put the heat outside. But um yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_00But wouldn't also that type of meat, like you could just kind of make in it and let it sit too and be on it.
SPEAKER_02That's true, it doesn't have to be blazing hot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's true. Or I could even like cook it and then pop it in the microwave or something. Um okay, that's a good idea. Because yeah, I was thinking I was thinking like some giant fun like past room temperature pasta that then and then like a big salad on the side. I feel like that's normally what I make for book club, and then like put out some cheeses and you know, something like that. It's fun to have like a pasta salad where you really do throw in like a million treats where you're like Sundra tomatoes and chickpeas and pepperoncini and s herbs and I don't know. All the stuff. All the yeah, the sort of antiposto stuff. Yep. Put it all in there and then it can just sit around and everyone.
SPEAKER_00It gets better the longer it sits. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, my book club's only like five of us. Okay. But plus Tom and the kids, it starts to feel like a lot of food. A lot of food, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, do you you like having people over for dinner? This is is is this like a are is I know that you have a lot going on and for tomorrow night there's like more constraints than usual, but do you generally try to like do it in a no fuss?
SPEAKER_02I generally try to do it in a somewhat no fuss. It's it's that like funny balance because I do want to make something yummy and I do want to like make an effort. Tom is always like, oh, this sounds like so much work. Like, let's just order a pizza. He's happy to kind of like throw convenience at it to like have fun. And I'm like, I I really struggle with that. Like I don't the convenience, I just don't think convenience is that fun, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think I'm with you on that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I definitely would rather cook for people than do takeout.
SPEAKER_02Well, it feels like just as much trouble in a way. I hate all the containers. I like the idea of everyone kind of eating from the same platters or bowls or something. Like there's something not that fun about just having like these little individual things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. But but it is but it is tricky because like I definitely have in my many years of having people over, gone too far, and then when people come over, I'm like a little underwater and um and am suddenly like it I I can't like pull back at that point. So then I have to sort of finish all the projects that I've started while everyone's like trying to have a good time.
SPEAKER_00But who's the person that that like in their advice when getting dressed is it like take one thing off before you leave the house?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know what's it like coping with it.
SPEAKER_00There's like a rule of I need to I need to apply that lesson to my it's like I'm getting ready to go in, like, let's just like remove one thing. Yeah. And then that just kind of like makes me much more at ease about the whole situation.
SPEAKER_02I think that's right. And it's like if yeah, if I can imagine, because I've been over to your house for dinner many times, like you have such an array of treats and stuff. You've like gone to so much trouble that yeah, I'm sure if you took one thing out, like everyone would still be like, This is such an array of treats that it wouldn't be.
SPEAKER_00That's it always ends up being like an extra dip. You know, I want to make one more dip, or there's like some recipe that I'm like, oh, it'd be great to get some feedback on this, or it's like let's make the facaccia, which is always so fun when you have people over because it's it's such a treat. And that's actually such an easy thing because you can do it right or so early in the day.
SPEAKER_02But um But then it really adds up.
SPEAKER_00It really it piles up, even though in your mind, in my mind, I can keep everything very compartmentalized. And I'm like, I'll do this, and I make a little I don't always do this, but I can like make a schedule if I'm trying to like plan it all out. And then even still in the in the moment, there's always like some kind of frenzied final push.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, let's just remove something from this.
SPEAKER_02I know. For me, yeasted products are definitely always on the chopping block. My friend Rachel and I always do complicated cooking, but then we'd always just get so overwhelmed. So I started being like, I'm thrilled to be doing a cooking project. We're just sort of sitting around chatting anyway, but I will not do yeasted products like I used to be. Wait, like together. You'd do all the cooking together. Yes. Which is great. There's nothing more fun than like cooking with people. But if the to-do list gets too long, then it tips over from like a fun chatty time to like What time are we having dinner? Yeah, and like, you know, did you make the did you strain the broth? And is the bread ready to get punched down? And like, where's your rolling bin? And like all this stuff, where it's just like then the fun gets a little a little crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it reminds me of when I used to teach cooking classes, and it's like it's kind of better better to do too little and to like have it all really just like be super dialed in and perfect than it is to like do too much and have everything a little bit sloppy, you know?
SPEAKER_02Oh gosh, that is me in a nutshell. Like doing too much and having it all be like, yeah, you could just have taken a couple more minutes for this. But I'm like, but I can't because I've overwhelmed myself.
SPEAKER_00But well, you know what's the worst is when you have people over and they arrive 10 minutes early. I feel like that's I open the door to greet them, and I'm like, there's like murder in my eyes.
SPEAKER_02Also, like as a procrastinator, those 10 minutes, I'm going to turn into like a superhero. Like, I'm gonna do so much in those 10 minutes. I'm gonna get it done, but it's gonna be by the skin of my teeth. And like, if anyone has to witness the insanity, I'm not gonna get it done. If I'm then adding, oh, can I make you a genotonic or something? I'm like, I'm screwed. Nope. Yeah. Trying to like have a conversation.
SPEAKER_00Well, speaking of ginatonics, I've made this joke before, so sorry if anybody's ever heard it. But if I ever write an entertaining cookbook, it's gonna be called You Get One Glass. Yes, I think that's because I don't know how it is that at the end of the night we've used up every single vessel for beverages and Our entire house.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00And it's only like four people.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00So it's like the gin and tonic, and like just so you know, that's going to be a water glass. And if you want wine with dinner, you're going to have to drink it out of that one too. So this is a a big decision right now what you want to drink for your first drink.
SPEAKER_02You're committed to it. Gotta finish it before give you anything else.
SPEAKER_00And Vincent is the exact opposite. He wants to set the table and like and I see where he's coming from too, because it is like such a I don't know, it's just like the generosity of it and the experience. It's like, why when else are you gonna do this? Right. But he wants to put the water glass and the drinking and the and then the wine glass, and then like have a little cocktail to start things off. And oh maybe somebody wants a different cocktail that requires a different type of glass. And I'm just I watch these things tally up. I'm like, Lucas, you just gotta let this go. We're gonna clean up at the end of the night, it's gonna be fine.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, I really get that. Also, I mean, I've just like run out of glasses in this stage of my life where I just need to like order more glasses because they've just like broken over the years and we can sort of get by, but I'm like, at the at a certain point, I'm like the water glasses get really I'm like, do you want a mug of water? This one smells too much like coffee. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We have a million mugs, but like five glasses, so take your pick.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I know it's always kind of a buzzkill when somebody washes dishes in the middle of like a a dinner party, but it is kind of helpful to do a quick round of classes halfway through the night. Yeah. Um but so what are you when you have say you're having people over Saturday night and it's like six people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You've got a packed day with stuff with the kids and what you chores and things. Like what what's what would be like a menu this time of year? I mean And and a game plan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean we do grill a lot because i it's a somewhat easy thing to do where if you marinate something, some chicken, some pork chops, whatever, then that's kind of done. And also Tom is more of the griller than I am, so I can also just be like, then Tom will cook it and it's off my plate. And then I do make a lot of sort of anaposto-y type things, and the convenient thing about that is you can even like put all of the treats in the bowl that you're serving. Uh-huh. And um, I don't love when when like that kind of thing has been refrigerated, even if it's brought back up to room temperature, you know, it still sort of loses a little of its like pasta can get a little weird. Yeah. But you can like put all the jazz in a bowl and put that in the fridge, and then it's all like the antipasta and the cheese.
SPEAKER_00Like if it's like mozzarella balls and all that.
SPEAKER_02And it marinates and gets all delicious. And then you can add pasta like closer to the time. Okay. Or same with salads, like make the salad dressing in the bottom of the bowl, add all your stuff to it. Even if you're making like a jazzy salad, add all your stuff to it. Maybe you like put the nuts in a little bowl on top and toss it at the very end, then it doesn't get soggy. But it's like this time of year comes around and I'm like, what do we do again? Should we just grill some zucchini? We do eat a lot of um that raw pasta sauce that I know we've talked about before. Oh, yeah, yeah. Marinade tomatoes and stuff. That's always a crowd pleaser. Um we grill a lot of vegetables. But yeah, I th I feel like um for having people over, it's a little trickier. We had some we had um this other family over last weekend, which was really fun. And for some reason I didn't I think I was just busy with other stuff. I hadn't really realized they have three kids, and I hadn't really realized that like, oh, they're gonna actually I'm feeding nine people dinner. I hadn't really fully gotten that. Like hadn't gotten there somehow. And I was like, no problem, I'll just make pizzas. And I like buy dough from the pizza from the pizza place around the corner. So that's actually kind of fun, but um, I probably should have made three giant pizzas. I just made two, so lesson learned on that. But what are your what are your go-tos? Because I'm sure you're gonna have some good ideas.
SPEAKER_00I feel like I always start with the dessert in my mind, because I find that even if the main dishes sort of fail to hit, if the dessert's really good, it ends up being a great night.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I no holds bar. I mean, not like I go crazy with dessert, but I know that like chocolate pudding is always gonna be really good, or I make a fruit galette all the time with whatever's in season, and that's always really good and nice ice cream. Or like I made some really good brownies. Basically, any of those cakes out of that great book, um, snacking cakes, those are always really good because it's like it's a cake and it's frosting and it's just like so fun. And yeah, I think that when I have dessert, I want it to be like just kind of activate that kid in in everybody where you're like, Oh, this is just delicious and takes me back to dessert when I was a kid, rather than something that's like intellectual, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I that's a that's a really good idea. Because I sometimes don't even serve dessert. Or or we'll have like ice cream.
SPEAKER_00Well you're not a huge like sweet tooth person.
SPEAKER_02I'm not a huge sweet tooth person. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like I'll ask if someone's like, Oh, can I bring anything? I'll be like, Oh, do you want to bring dessert? Um it is really fun to have dessert though. I mean, even if someone who doesn't have a huge sweet tooth, it is it's like jolly or something.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's also that's like the difference between having people over for dinner and then just like having dinner at home. Yeah, it's with your partner, your family, or whatever. I feel like we don't do dessert every night, but it's always a part of like hosting a dinner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I I feel like it's really fun to make bread when I have time because I don't know, then it's I I my like my love language is acts of service, and so I'm all about like what will make this like really enjoyable for everybody and like fresh made bread is is fun. I always I enjoy like a fun sort of side dish if it's gonna be I don't know, uh like asparagus if it's in season right now, make that and blanch it and get it really cold and make a nice like little dipping sauce for it. Or I always think of um Nora Efron. I can't remember where what book this was, but you know, she like had such strong opinions about food. And I remember she um she mentioned something she learned from is it Lee Bailey? Lee Bailey. Yeah, right? Yeah, he was like of seventies, eighties, nineties, maybe, like big sort of like cookbook guy.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And um he had a rule of four where you've got like the menu with the three things and then you add like a wild card. Oh and the example that she used was spoon bread, which is kind of like a corn pudding type thing. Sort of like cornbread, but a little bit more moist and you scoop it out of the dish. And yeah. I was like, oh, that's kind of a fun thing to throw into practice. Completely contradicts what I was saying before about removing one item.
SPEAKER_02I think sometimes I just don't know how to rein it in. Like one thing I definitely will do is sort of like generally Mediterranean, Middle Eastern stuff, where I'm like, oh, I'll make like a bunch of dips, and then we can like have some grilled chicken and some grilled veggies and some pitas or something, and and sort of like the appetizers can kind of flow into the regular meal, and there's something kind of fun about that. Um that's the kind of stuff that like I feel very comfortable making and I know it's kind of a crowd pleaser, and again, you can do them ahead of time, and then you feel like it's it's kind of fun to be pulling all these like bowls out of the fridge and yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's a good idea. I also love um I always want there to be something out when people arrive to eat because it just kind of like buys you time and like in terms if there is any I try not to have to cook while people are over, but like yeah, it buys a little time and it's always nice, I feel like, to go to somebody's house and be like, oh, and um we always we have this like nice copper bowl. It's been designated our potato chip bowl. Oh so we you've probably eaten potato chip out of it. But we just like empty a bag of cape cod potato chips into that and set it out, and usually there'll be like one other like a dip or some vegetables or cheeses, and that's just like out and ready. And the potato chips to us are not an everyday thing, so it's that's always fun and kind of makes it feel like a party.
SPEAKER_02And nothing goes better with drinks, even if you're just having like a seltzer. I mean, it's just like it's so fun to have some potato chips.
SPEAKER_00Good potato chips, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you have like a good dip for potato chips that's not just like sour cream and onions? Sour cream and onions. I mean, I could I've tried making my own sour cream and onion, and it's been good. Like with like in a very sort of like my own weird spin on it where I'm like, it's mostly yogurt and you know, like herbs and caramelized onions. I think once I made it with like fish sauce in it to give it a little sort of to mention. Interesting. And it was good. It still didn't have quite the like punch of just the little packet of lip display.
SPEAKER_00What's in is it like the I don't know, is it like the garlic powder MSG? That's probably what it is.
SPEAKER_02But maybe garlic powder too, actually.
SPEAKER_00I'm pretty sure garlic powder is like you need that because raw garlic is also like too much in something like that.
SPEAKER_02Maybe I'll try to make something like that actually. But do you have any any recommendations?
SPEAKER_00I don't really make a dip for the potato chips. I do um I don't know. I I like to have cut I I this is not sounding like easy entertaining at all. But um I always I mean I'd so like the bowl of potato chips, but I also want a plate of like cut-out vegetables, and usually it's just like gouging through my like crisper, so it's like a cucumber and some radishes, and maybe if there's some like celery stick. I just set them out and then there's like a dip for that. And I I like this um peanut butter tofu dip that sounds weird, but is actually really, really delicious.
SPEAKER_02Like with silken tofu?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, you can do yeah, or not not the extra firm tofu, but you can use firm tofu. Oh, yeah. It's basically tofu, peanut butter, and a few other things, and it gets really whipped and silky and fun to drag a vegetable through.
SPEAKER_02That sounds great. Yeah, it's it is nice to have something out. And I feel like I mean, I love cheese and charcuterie, but it's kind of nice to have something that feels a little bit more springy or summery. Yeah. If you've got some good veggies.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, for sure. Well, you came over one time and you brought some of your chutney.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was so good and it went to Yeah and you brought over some cheeses, and so we had yeah, the chutney with the cheese. That was such a great little appetizer.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thanks. I sometimes make a batch of that, like a huge batch of it, a tomato-based chutney with like golden raisins, toasted almonds, that kind of thing, but it's got so much sugar and vinegar in it that it lasts for a really long time. But I love the idea of just having stuff out and not having the like formality, especially in this case, like my book club. I feel like everyone's pretty cash. So it's nice to just have things that people can kind of pick on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. Well, and sorry, like not to say like I don't cooking to me is not stressful, but cooking in front of other people and trying to like hold a conversation while you're cooking, yeah, that to me is stressful. It's stressful to me too.
SPEAKER_02And I feel like it's sort of two parts of my brain that um where I'm like, oh, I want to like ask you about your things and like be very engaged, and then I'm just like a hundred percent not listening or like even really making sense. So it's that's yeah, I find that very distressing.
SPEAKER_00That's that's absolutely me too. Where you're like, oh, interesting. Oh, cool. And not paying attention to a single word that they're saying, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_02And then they've like given you information that then comes back like half an hour later and you're like, I didn't know that. And they're like, I told you that a half an hour ago.
SPEAKER_00Have you had any um dinner party disasters in terms of like things you've cooked?
SPEAKER_02Tom and I had, I guess it was like it was like over the holidays uh sometime, and we were like, we were like it was ye like a decade ago before we had kids, and we were like, let's have a really fancy party where everyone like gets dressed up and we like have fancy cocktails and like pull out all the like nice china and like nice it I think it was actually soon after we got married, so we had like a nice tablecloth and some napkins and stuff. So we like really sort of did up the table and we probably invited over maybe like eight people, which seems like a ton, and still seems like a ton, actually. Um and for some reason we decided to make I don't know why, chicken pot pie, which is perfectly reasonable to make that. Um but we just did not make enough and it was extremely distressing to me. And it was like no one went home hungry. We had tons of appetizers, we had big salad, we had a huge dessert, like it was fine, but it was something about I still remember sitting at the table, it really burned me.
SPEAKER_00That is I know that's and like what's in that did you acknowledge it or no, and I maybe I should have.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I'm from that camp where it's like never sort of never apologize. The Julia Child apologize. Yeah, exactly. Which which maybe is good. I can ask some of the people who came to that party be like, do you remember not having enough to eat?
SPEAKER_00I bet they have no recollection whatsoever.
SPEAKER_02Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. I mean, it wasn't yeah, but it was just like a miscalculation, and I was just like, oh, sort of amateur hour. What about you? Anything that comes to mind?
SPEAKER_00I feel like mine are like yours are sort of like it's not the thing catching on fire in the oven or like any of those serious disasters. Um, but it's more like I feel like I always get really stressed out when I cook for food people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I want to like I like to I like the hanging out and just like catching up, but then once they're like cookbook authors or people who are like I know to be restaurant critics or something like that, it just like I it clamps me up and I I can't I find it hard to even enjoy myself.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_00And I feel like I'm um though those that's when I like it's not necessarily missteps, but it's just like you can feel the like overthinking in the food and all the effort, and there's nothing sort of like casual and easy and just like I'm so with you.
SPEAKER_02It's very hard to manage that. I think because yeah, I was when I was having I think that's why when I invited the family over for pizza, I didn't really think about it because I've been trying to channel my sort of like, you know, community, you know, you gotta make the community that you wanna have, and like things can be less formal, and we're just sort of everyone's gotta eat. I was like in that mode. I think then I just I can I can force myself into that, but then maybe I'm not making the best decisions.
SPEAKER_00Oh, because you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where I'm just sort of like, oh, okay, this'll work, and like haven't really like thought through all the details. Yeah. But almost as like as a as a deliberate like, I'm not gonna think through all the details because it's gonna stress me out, but then I'm like, and here I am not having thought through the details, and there's like a problem, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well then I mean on the flip of that, I go over to people's houses who do not work in food.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Most of my friends don't work in food, and they're always like, Oh, I was really nervous cooking for you. And I'm like, that it m upsets me so much that anybody would think that. Yeah. Um because like first off, I just know how much work it is to cook for other people and what a what a generous gesture it is. And like the fact that somebody thinks that I'm gonna somehow be like extra critical of of their cooking is so bogus. I just I truly don't do that. And I don't want it, I don't want that to be a perception of me. And so then when I then myself am in that position where I'm cooking for people who I feel like are gonna have like opinions or they're they're gonna look at it critically like, oh, they probably aren't because they also know what the stress of this is, and so it's like let's just have a good time. Oh, here's a actually this is a question. Yeah. Do you ever cook something for the first time when you cook it for guests?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think this is getting to the crux of it. I always do that. I always do that. I mean Oh, so you don't like test drive things, or no. I mean, I test drive maybe sort of concepts, but because I don't cook with a lot of recipes, I am sort of like this should work. And then and then like maybe it won't work. So I sort of again I sort of set myself up a little bit. Like I could just be like, I'm gonna use a really tried and true recipe, and then I'm gonna know that this is gonna like be enough food, it's gonna be yummy, it will be done in 45 minutes. Instead, I'm like, I'll just sort of wing it as I normally wing it, and then but winging it as I normally wing it with like my family waiting around kind of happily like doing their own thing until dinner's ready is different than like if people are like have had like two gen and tonics and they're kind of like, yeah, getting a little hungry around here.
SPEAKER_00Well, I used to be part of like a cookbook club where we would choose a cookbook and then cook recipes from it. And and it came up that like you should never cook a recipe for the first time if you're cooking it for people. And I was like, what are you talking about? This is to me, it's like a perfect opportunity to try something, no, not necessarily my recipes, but like cook something out of a cookbook and then we can all kind of enjoy it together and all share in the experience. And when I'm following somebody else's recipe and I'm cooking for for people, I can be like, oof, this I don't know about this recipe. You know, you've got like a yes, you've got a fallback then. You've got an out. You've got an out of really smart. But when it's your own recipes, then you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna um pull a Julia child here and be like, This was great. I did it for you, you're welcome.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I know. I yeah, because I want the glory.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's part of the problem. I want people to be like, How did you do it, Ellie? This is so amazing. Like sometimes it will turn out great, but sometimes it won't, as we all know. Like that's how it goes.
SPEAKER_00I feel like the recipe for success is to just play to your strengths and make the stuff that you make you can just kind of do with while you're half asleep.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that all that's and that people always enjoy that too.
SPEAKER_02Well, the last thing I want when I'm having people over is to feel pressured. So that's where like these easy things where I'm like, okay, this is just it's just some chicken on the grill, it's just some stuff I'm pulling out of the fridge, I feel like becomes my go-to. Because there's not that much that can go wrong. Right. Or anything that goes wrong goes wrong ahead of time. So it's not that worrisome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's yeah, exactly. And then it also just creates the feel of those family dinners. Yeah. That where everybody is just like they can kind of roll up their sleeves and relax, and there's nothing um high pressure about it or anything fussy. Which is the vibe that I always want when I have people over.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's definitely the vibe I want too. What are you having for dinner tonight? I I think we're gonna have some leftovers. Um the fridge is packed full of stuff, and there's only so much I can eat for lunch every day of the week. No one's no one's. My dilemma right now, too.
SPEAKER_00I left early to go to the gym and Vincent, I had to text Vincent. I was like, you may not leave for work without taking this, this, this, and this for lunch. Because the I've been I've had so much cooking to do. Like the fridge is so packed. And it's the same thing. I'm like, I hope I have a huge appetite for lunch because there's a lot to work through.
SPEAKER_02I know. I'm glad that I like the idea that he might have been like, oh, Lucas isn't here. Like, I can expect nope.
SPEAKER_00I'm just thinking about it though, it's like, uh, because it's you I mean it's a ticking clock on on this food.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Majorly ticking clock. Yeah, so I think we're doing that. Sounds like you're doing that too.
SPEAKER_00I made this thing the other day. It's sort of like a chickpea version of like a tuna salad, and I made a lot of it because I and that was really good. And I think I'm just gonna have that over some salad greens, maybe stretch it out with some other vegetables and stuff, but I like it. It's it's uh again 90 degrees and something kind of cold. Sounds really good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That sounds great.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, enjoy your lettuce harvest.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Enjoy your leftovers. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Okay, talk to you next time.
SPEAKER_02Okay, bye. One last thing. If you have enjoyed this podcast or any other of our podcasts that you've listened to, we had a big favor to ask, which is just to rate or review us in whatever podcast listening system you're listening to this on, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any of the other ones. Um, usually you can, you know, give a star rating or you can leave a little review, and we'd so appreciate it. It really helps with having other listeners find us on those platforms. So thanks so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
