Homegrown Food Highs & Lows

Welcome to SALT PIG! This week, we are pushing back against the enshittification of Big Food and talking about what veggies are growing on Lukas’ roof and in Ellie’s backyard. Turns out homegrown food has a wide range of highs and lows: mistakenly planting the proliferative yet dull-as-rocks banana pepper, the verdant joy of clipping your own herbs and lettuces, the diverse findings of chili pepper experiments, and the horrifying, nightmare-inducing girth of a lost cucumber from 2012. Plus, can a ferment get too fermented, or is Ellie just a ninny?

Discussed in this episode:

• Pale in Comparison: What to Know about US Butter (via Radio New Zealand)
• The Enshittification of Big Food (via Mike Lee) 
• Lukas’ fermented hot sauce
• Lukas’ soupy orzo

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Salt Pig. We are two cookbook writers chatting about the ups and downs of actual home kitchen life. Lucas, what are we talking about this week?

SPEAKER_03 0:12

This week we are getting kind of deep on seasonal produce, home gardening, the pleasures of you know all the delicious produce that is starting, well, not really arriving yet, but soon arriving where we live in New York and just how fun it is to cook with this stuff. Some of the hits, the misses, the the nightmares from your garden.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Plenty of nightmares from the garden. You can find new and old episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. And check us out on Substack2 at saltpig.substack.com where you can sign up for our weekly newsletter now. Also, if um you don't mind doing us a huge favor, if you're enjoying the podcast, could you please rate or review us on whatever platform you're listening on? It makes a really big difference in terms of visibility, and we so appreciate it. All right, let's get started.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

So I wanted to tell you about this thing that I read uh online earlier this week. Okay. Which I don't know if you've heard about this, but in New Zealand, which I've been very fortunate I've been to New Zealand, and um they have a very, very rich dairy culture because the there's all these cows that, you know, are sort of all over the country, and they make these beautiful cheeses and beautiful milk, and they're known for this great ice cream. But um recently, American butter has made its way into New Zealand grocery stores, and it's not marked very well as being like non-domestic butter in New Zealand. And people are like wising up to the fact because they're like, why is it this color? Why is it like light? Why why is it tasting like this? It's not creamy. Yeah, it's not like it doesn't have that like rich texture, it's kind of like breaks apart, which is because it's got like a lower fat content. And it's becoming a thing online that people are like outraged by the fact that this American butter is making its way to their New Zealand grocery stores. I don't know, I just wanted to chat about it with you because I thought first off it's so funny because like I'm I I know how good their butter. And every time I've been to like Europe or traveled, I'm like, wow, the butter is just like so much better. It's it's really like you think of it like cheese. I know rather than as this just like pantry staple thing that you use to make scrambled eggs. It's like this beautiful rich color and this gorgeous flavor and texture.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

I know. It makes such a huge difference. I've actually started, it makes me sound really it's really absurd, but I've started buying Kerrygold butter at Costco. Oh, maybe we use just for toast. Okay. It's like exclusively toast butter. And then I have like whatever, like, you know, buy them in bulk, like salted butter sticks that we use for like cooking, baking, everything else. But I'm like, but if I'm just gonna spread it on toast, I'm like, I'm using the good stuff. And it really does, it's really good. It's really like a small upgrade that like really makes a difference. Oh my god, I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

It I was thinking about it too, because it was and maybe this will lead in a little bit to our chat today, but um how I kind of like I was um sorry, this is gonna be a roundabout way of saying this, but I also read this article this week called like the inchidification of food. And it it's it I don't know if you know this term, it's like a chori doctoro term, and he calls like it he wrote coined this term in the context of the internet and how like when social media and when the internet was first getting started, it presented all this promise, and all these people were like all this original work, and then slowly over time it's just been like it's just so bad, like logging into any social media.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

It's fake, it's terrible, it's right, everything.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

And so then over sort of a longer period of time, this article is arguing that food has gone through a similar process of being inchitified, where it used to be one of the examples he uses like in the 50s when like Hellman's mayonnaise was first developed. It was like eggs, oil, vinegar, those are the ingredients. And now the ingredient list is like a mile long and it has all these synthetic things in it.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

And it's like right.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah. And I and then he one of the other arguments of this article is that like not only is this you know compromising the integrity of the food, but it's changing our palates and it's changing our understanding of like what tastes good. And um, and so in butter, where most of us are probably buying like the four or five dollar pound right packages of butter that is like chalky white, chalky in texture, not good. That's kind of like what we are coming to prefer when it comes to butter rather than this like rich mouthfeel and rich uh rich flavor.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Um, and it kind of like I don't know, it bumps me out. And it bumps me out, and then uh it's just just like interesting this age that we're living in with the ingredients that we have access to, and like shopping at a place like Costco, or I like I go to Trader Joe's at least once a week, and and it's kind of like this is I don't it's my line of work that I need to find ingredients that are consistent and work in all these other people's kitchens. But like if I had my way, I would be like going to the farmer's market buying these like craft paper wrapped logs of butter and baking and cooking and eating that exclusively. You know, it's like uh I don't know, it just uh it informs this this predicament of of cooking right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Oh, definitely. And I do find it fascinating the idea that it's changing our palettes. It's like that reminds me of when I was a um whatever whenever we were talking about when we went to Spain and got the the um salami platter that was like real salami. And Tom and I liked it, but even some of that we were like, oh yeah, this is pretty funky, and we're just not used to something that's like but you're you're like yeah, it's cured meat. Like, of course it's gonna be funky. That's that's why that's why people like it.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

So to have maybe a little grisly, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

But to be eating to be eating some salami from the supermarket that's like had all that removed completely, is it's it's sad. Because you want, I mean, that's you're you're erasing like what its essence is. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

And then you have to go through this process of like retraining your palate. And also learning and accepting and embracing the fact that like salami is not one thing, butter is not one thing, right? Produce is not, you know, like to like live in the world of like living food means accepting the fact that it's not consistent across the board. Yes. And that's like a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yes, yes, and also that like eating food, sometimes you have to deal with some things that aren't that uh aesthetically pleasing or they're a little uncomfortable, like dealing with raw chicken or like like meat on the bone. I feel like I have a lot of friends whose families like don't want to eat meat on a bone. Really? Oh yeah. Because it's too much information. And like it's like how people prefer, you know, chicken breasts over any other chicken. They sort of don't want like any any sinews or any anything that's not just like pure unadulterated, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Like the most removed from having been a living animal.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Exactly. And I'm like, yeah, there's something great, of course, about some of those foods, about having a chicken breast that's just like, you know, you don't have to mess around with any bones. But I'm also like, let's be real. This is this is meat, it comes from an animal. There's a bone involved, there's a lot of other stuff involved. Like we have to you can't remove it, doesn't seem morally No, it it doesn't seem right to like totally remove it from its essence, you know?

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Yeah, and like the discomfort is kind of part of it. That's what gives you an appreciation for I don't know, the the privilege of of eating it.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yes, yes, yeah. It's like not using rubber gloves. I'm like, yeah, no one wants to touch raw chicken, but I guess I feel like if I'm eating raw chicken, then I have to touch it. Like it's like it just doesn't seem like it seems like you can only put so many barriers. We're in this, we're yeah, the culture is uh our culture right now is so about sort of, I don't know, glossing over that stuff and putting all these barriers in place of like the real experience and the real thing to make it more palatable, both sort of literally and figuratively. And I just I on one hand, of course, it's great to have it be more palatable, but it just doesn't seem real. I guess I'd prefer the real version.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

More palatable and just like more like packageable, more of this like thing that's the same every time you encounter it. Yes, which yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Have you ever gone hunting? Have you ever like killed or skinned an animal in a horror?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

No. And and I I'm sort of ashamed to say that because I do like eat meat. I feel like in a way it's almost my responsibility to have like taken it to that level. Not like every day, because we live in New York City, but like but yeah, but the idea that I'm just Ellie in Prospect Park with a rifle looking for the deer. With like a bow and arrow and just looking for dinner. No big deal. Um I know, but I do feel like I should I should be able to to have had that experience and sort of overcome it. I find it very respectable that people still make that they have to make that transition of going through that difficult process and yeah, have you?

SPEAKER_03 9:54

No, I've um no, I've never been hunting and s never like slaughtered a you know chicken or anything like that. I remember I mentioned one of our last episodes going Boy Scouting. Yeah, and part of that involved fishing out of these streams. And I was like the first person to catch the fish, and it really was an indicator. It's like, oh my god, look at I'm this prodigy fisher here. And then they're like, okay, now you have to, you know, gut it and and prepare it for cooking. And I was like, and I'm done. That's the end of the thing. Prodigy be damned. Yeah. Well well, one thing that is um a little bit less squeamish is growing vegetables. So true.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, it's sort of the the very, very acceptable version of that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah. So you guys, um, Tom more than you, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Tom's really definitely more than me. I do not have a green thumb, but I do really like to reap the rewards of the garden. And I was thinking back um when we first got involved, the apartment that Tom was living in had this big yard. It was like a very small apartment with a very big yard. And it um and it was awesome. And he like really grew stuff out there. He was really like intent. He had like he even had like like a lawn mower. I mean, it was like literally this patch of grass that you know like is the size of like a New York City backyard. But um, he would like go out there with like a can of beer and like mow the lawn like once a week. But um, but it was awesome. And and it was the first time I had never I mean, I had never grown any food before. And it was sort of a no. Even though we had a yard, no one grew anything back there. So yeah, so it was kind of a whole new world, and it was it was really fun. I mean, and especially in the beginning, you know, when we first started dating, actually, I mean, because Tom he knows how to cook, certainly, but he was more interested in the growing process than he was in the cooking process. So it was fun. Like I remember one of our first dates early on in our relationship. He was like, I have all this, um, it wasn't escarol. Oh, it was frise. He's like, I grew all this frise, which I was like, I wonder why, because he wasn't eating it, I don't think. But he was like, I have all this frisé, what should I do with it? And I was like, um, I guess we could make for some reason the first thing that came to my mind was to make like a frise au ladant, you know, the French salad. That was the first thing I thought of too. Yeah, I was like, Frisé, I guess this. So he was like, Great. So one very languorous weekend morning, we were like, Oh, we'll make a frise au Lardin, got some bacon and poached eggs and made this whole thing, and it was it was really fun. And I was like, Oh, I think both of us were like, oh, this could work out. This is a good match. Um I mean, obviously having stuff be that fresh like makes a huge difference in the way that it tastes, but it's also what I love about it is the challenge, the idea that like you're not just like, oh, what do I feel like cooking today and cruising through all these you know options at the store. I think it's really fun to be kind of forced to do something where it's like, oh, okay, we've got to do something with this, or we've got to do something with that, or we have a smattering of things that all need to get used up. And I I love that challenge.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

So that's what's great about a CSA, too, if you've ever done a CSA.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

I haven't ever done I've I've like taken people's when they go on vacation, you know, they'll be like, Oh, do you want mine this week? And that's been really fun. I think week over week, I wonder if that would be too much.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Uh yeah. I mean, it kind of I've done a few of them with different farms, and they do vary from one to the next. Some of them it's just like tons of food, and some of them it's like a smaller amount. But um, I mean that if you I feel like you would probably be a perfect person for a CSA if you enjoyed this challenge because one week you've got a bunch of turnips.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

And you gotta figure out something to do with them. Or yeah, turnips were I remember getting tons of turnips. Well, and and we would pick up the CSA box at the same time that they that the farmer's market was happening, and so you'd see like all these beautiful tomatoes and all these beautiful cucumbers and all the like really like sexy summer stuff, and then you get your CSA box and it'd be like potatoes, turnips, a cabbage, and I was like, I wanted all the good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

But um any heirloom tomatoes in there? No.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

But that's how I fell in love with like Kohlrabi is a vegetable I really love, and I had never really eaten that before. CSA.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah. We used to talk about getting a CSA, and now that Tom really just continues to grow vegetables, we're kind of like, that's enough. That's sort of our CSA. But it is different because we get to choose, or I get to at least give some opinions about what he plants. Yeah. And that that feels different, where I'm never like gotta get some turnips in there, which you know, I like turnips. I have very little experience eating them or cooking them. Like, what did you do with all your turnips?

SPEAKER_03 15:01

These were the smaller, I can't remember what they're called, like the Japanese. They kind of like look like radishes a little bit. Um, and I ate them raw a lot, or I like steamed them and put like a compound butter on them, or sometimes I just like this was I remember talking to my friends Joe and JV who have a CSA, and they just like every time they got it like Sunday, it was like dump it on a sheet pan, throw it in the oven, and then like we're meal prepped for the week.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

And um, I got into the habit of doing that too. It's just like all those root vegetables going on a sheet pan and roast them off. Roast them off all at once. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. What are you guys growing? Because you guys now in your new place have the roof.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Yeah. I have never, in fact, like I remember growing up. My parents didn't really have a green thumb. And I remember the task of like weeding the garden every year was just, oh, it was such a chore out of the sun. And yeah, um, I just never enjoyed it. But now, and yeah, Vincent and I moved um almost two years, two summers ago, and now we have a dedicated roof space um and some planters up there, and so I've really gotten into it, and like all my social media content is gardening tips and stuff, and and it's so fun and it's so rewarding. I think I'm very lucky that it's all the sun makes growing stuff really easy.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Oh my gosh. I mean, a roof, a roof garden. If do you have a water source up there?

SPEAKER_03 16:24

We do, yeah. Oh, and we put in one of those little like watering systems so it just kind of is timed to go off every day.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Oh, that's great. We had some in an old apartment of ours when we didn't have a backyard. Tom tried to grow some stuff on the fire escape, but it was like shady and you know, clouded by all these buildings, so it didn't really work on the fire escape. So he was like, No problem, I'll put some stuff on the roof, but there was no water source up there. Oh, yeah. So then it's like you have to remember to go up there with like lugging all this water and it just it like things come through the fire escape ladder. Yes. Well, no, no, actually through the inside there was like a sort of emergency exit door, but the whole thing just didn't it didn't come together and all the stuff got fried up there because there's so much sun up there. And it's like the roof is so reflective. I think it was just like it just got yeah, he never he never figured that one out.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

It is crazy how with that kind of sun you do they do need a fair amount of water.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah. But that's great. If you have a s if you especially like an automatic system, because like I don't know, we've tried to do that and even in the yard, and we probably need to just sort of throw some money at it. But um we try to do that.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

They're really not that expensive. I think we well, I mean, I think we spent like sixty bucks on this unit, and then it gives you the timer that you attach to like the spigot. Yeah, and then you have these long hoses that you can cut off and then like reattach and you just place little it's pretty simple.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Really? Okay. Oh, that's cool. So what are you growing?

SPEAKER_03 17:54

In the process of sort of reflecting on last year and applying the learnings.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Herbs were actually one of the most exciting things for me because I actually use a lot of herbs. And even when I use them all the time, they it's really hard, like use all of them when you get like a big bunch from the grocery store.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

And this way I can just go up there and like clip off exactly what I need. And I was just so amazed how they thrive. And they, you know, like the time came back, the chives came back with a vengeance, the rosemary's doing great, lavender.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Um I'm gonna plant some parsley this weekend, and I think I'm gonna plant a little bay laurel uh potted tree thing because that the fresh leaves are so nice.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

That would be great, and you could probably dry them at the end of the season. That would be cool.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Um but tomatoes for sure. This last year we did some of these I can't even remember what they were called. They were sort of like medium-sized tomatoes, and they were really good. But I think this year I just want a bunch of cherry tomatoes. Yeah. Um, so we'll do like two plants of those. Yeah. And then I want to try lettuces and cucumbers. Yeah. Um last year we I had this vision of growing a couple different types of chilies and then making a bunch of hot sauce at the end of the year. And then one of the plants that I mistakenly bought was banana peppers.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Oh, oh right. I remember you telling me about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Not only are banana peppers like they're kind of flavorless, yeah, but I swear to God, we got at least a hundred banana peppers. We would I'd like trim off ten of them one day and then come back up the next morning, and there were 15 more. Like they grew so fast and so abundantly, and I I never knew what to do with them. I was just like throwing them into pretty much everything.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

And they added no flavor. Don't do banana peppers. What what does Tom like to grow?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

We've definitely grown hot peppers because similarly, it's so fun. The idea of having a glut of hot peppers sounds kind of fun, and we've made hot sauce in the past. And although, you know, I keep making different hot sauces, and I think maybe I should stop because I have I mean, I'm such a hot sauce fanatic, and I have so many hot sauces already, kind of that I'm obsessed with, like that are commercial hot sauces, in terms of like chili paste and you know, Mexican hot sauce and stuff I put on this, and green ones and red ones, and all this stuff. In a way, like I I may not need another hot sauce um that's my own. But I don't know. I should try it. I made your fermented hot sauce, which was very good. Oh, good. But I think I fermented it I fermented it a really long time, and I think I just sort of wigged myself out about it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Oh, okay. But I should go turn a weird color.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

It turned a weird color, which I know is not a big deal, and yet it's it's never like the one that I reach for because I think I I just like weirded myself out. I think part of it's a textural thing. You know how sometimes like a hot sauce a homemade hot sauce has it can be either like it separates really easily. Like I feel like to get like a a like a it's not an emulsification because I don't know what you'd emulsify it, but there's there's something about the texture of a commercial hot sauce that feels a little bit more consistent. I feel like a homemade one it separates and you can shake it up, but it's never quite the right consistency.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah, it's got like a like solids in it.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, it's got a lot of solids in it. I'm sure I mean that's fixable.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

But well, you can add like a pinch of santhan gum, which is what a lot of the commercial ones do, which is just like an emulsifier. I don't know if you would want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

But oh, interesting. Have you ever done that?

SPEAKER_03 21:40

No, not at home. Only in like food styling where you need to. It is funny because I tried to make a fermented hot sauce with the banana peppers, yeah, and they were just like too watery. It was like after it fermented, it was just like more like water release than it was the pepper part. So I I just dumped that.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Oh, I do think. having like serranos and jalapenos around or like uh red jalapenos definitely like anything like that that you can like pickle like I love a pickled pepper like crazy love a pickled pepper and such a good thing to do with them because you can fill up like a huge you can take like twenty five of them and slice them all up and pack them into a like a single jar. Yeah. So I love doing that. And once I tried actually candying I was getting really creative which was kind of fun. Like I candied them and made almost this like caramel with these hot peppers. It was kind of nutty but it was also really cool. And then I just winging it? Just winging it.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

What was the process?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

It was quite a long time it was quite a few years ago. I guess I made a caramel with just like some white sugar and maybe some water and like browned it, caramelized it. And then maybe um like sort of loosened it with some vinegar and some peppers. Interesting I can't remember I can't remember exact I think it was something like that. But I just made this little jar of it and it was a very odd texture like I kept it in the fridge. It was a very odd texture once it like crystallized in the fridge sort of almost like honey. But it was kind of cool to have this spicy honey. I should try that again actually sort of play around with it.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Yeah that sounds really inspired yeah yeah it was fun it was fun. When I got into making that fermented hot sauce um one of my friends Paul was over we were working together and he had worked at like NOMA and done he's like a really skilled not a chef anymore but he was saying that you can take pretty much any vegetable and he recommended because I sorry the process of making this fermented hot sauce is you essentially make a a mash where you like chop up or mince up the peppers and then weigh them and add a um measured amount of salt what usually you want between like two and three percent of the weight.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

And so I had the mash on my fridge fermenting and he was like you know you can really do that with pretty much any vegetable. Add two percent two to three percent of its uh weight and salt and like let it ferment for sometimes just a couple days, sometimes it's weeks you can taste it along the way and see what you think. It needs to be like submerged in its own juices right. And if there aren't enough juices you can make a you know a salt solution. Just like two percent yeah exactly measure the do the same thing. Take a hundred grams of water add two and a half grams of salt or something like that and then add cover it so that it's submerged. But then um you have these like ferment like the Fresno chilies this is what I want to do this year. Yes. It's just slice them all up, pile them into a jar yes add that salt let them get fermented and then just treat that as a garnish rather than as a hot sauce or something.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yes. I love that idea. Oh I hope you play around with that so I can Yeah I'm going to I have I have a couple little ferments happening right now fermenting some salsa which is really fun too because I love that flavor especially with chilies like any fermented chili thing obviously we've talked about Calabrian chilies but anything in that world gochu jangs and all of that stuff. And it's fun to think because I I like the vinegar aspect of like a hot sauce but you don't always want something with that particular tang. Sometimes you want just like a salt salt pickle you know like that kind of stuff. That's fun. I've I've been wanting to play around with more salt pickles I guess. Is that sort of what it's called or like ferments? Yeah a ferment.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

I don't know. Because you get the um is it lack I don't know it I had to like train myself to identify like that flavor of what fermentation adds and it's almost like an effervescence and then the funk. Yeah. You know you see the bubbles come you need to like burp the jars every day or so to let that CO2 out. But I totally agree. And it's like you can make all these hot sauces and they're sitting there but then there's something kind of fun about taking the same principle but leaving the vegetable whole and then it's like a pickle or a garnish or just like something different to to play with.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Definitely and you think about I mean there's so many food cultures that have those sorts of fermented vegetables like every every piece of what's made us that would be really I def I hope you come up with some systems for that because I'd love to I mean I think that that's it.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

You just add salt and let it sit and keep it submerged.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

That's the only thing is I I am a little freaked out by like like that border I don't feel that confident between negotiating sort of how a thing goes bad. Like if you ever had like a roasted pepper from a store and then you take a bite of it and it's fizzy. Yeah. Yeah and I'm like it's gone bad I think has it gone bad?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Oh or has it started to ferment?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I think it started to ferment. So but so that's the right so maybe it's not that it's gone bad but I think they're that's the that's the gray area that I'm very uncomfortable with. But I think I I I need to like read about it or I get more comfortable with it. I don't know. Because I feel I think sometimes it means it's gone bad. And sometimes it means it's fermented and that's great.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Well I think that mold would be as I understand it once if you see mold and even sometimes it's like not even all if it's like white mold on the surface I've read that you can just scrape that off.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Oh really yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

I know it is kind of you're right. It is kind of hard. I do feel like though I mean touching on what we were discussing before the way we eat now has made us like afraid of food. I know I know and just I kind of I I I know that like our lifespans were dramatically shorter like a couple hundred years ago than they are now. But I try to imagine how like if sauerkraut something that's been around for ages and people weren't using digital scales then. They didn't have temperature controlled spaces they didn't have the airlocks for the jars. They were like doing it with their senses and you know through these traditional methods that they learned and I don't know they can't be a bit I think that's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

I think I think if maybe I read about it maybe I have to get the science a little under my belt or something. Because I do I mean I that food is probably my favorite food to have like a fermented vegetable level. Yeah I just don't want to I just don't feel totally confident being like in charge of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Are you a have you ever been a preserver of you know like jarring things and yes I have done that and that um that also I think it brings out this sort of exactness in me that I'm not quite like we've made pickles a bunch of times with homegrown cucumbers because I mean so you have not grown cucumbers before no I'm so excited that's one of my favorite vegetables I love cucumbers. Well what are you what type are you going to plant? Because I have a lot to say about growing cucumbers. I'm excited this is perfect.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

I want to grow uh there's this farmer like Willow something farms at Union Square in in at the big farmer's market here in the city and they're kind of like Persian cucumbers I like I I don't think they're actually the same variety but they're that size and they're not too thick and the skins are really thin and they're just sort of sweet and really really snappy and that's what I want to grow if I can figure out what they are.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yes I think that's a great idea. Because yeah Tom has grown just sort of run of the mill cucumbers and they are well it's it's a really interesting vegetable to grow because like you can see in the way that it grows like if you haven't watered you're not going to have any of these problems. But like if if you haven't watered it it like gets really weird and then when you do water it like expands and like it it responds like very very literally to like it's it's wow and quickly like very quickly they grow really quickly um we have a lot of crazy cucumber stories about like you think you've gotten all the cucumbers and then like we once this was in Tom's old apartment he once like you know we had it was the summer he grew cucumbers we ate them we ate everything else it wasn't a huge garden I mean it was in the backyard. But cucumbers have these really enormous leaves and they're kind of spiky so you know you have to really paw around in there no big deal. We pawed around in there months pass and Tom goes back there to like clear out the garden for winter or something and he comes back in the apartment with this thing that literally still gives me nightmares it was huge. It was like and it was thick and it was bright orange. What? And it had just like gone off the rails.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Like how can you give some dimensions?

SPEAKER_00 31:05

It was like I'm I'm holding up my hands but you can't see them because they won't even like fit in the screen it was probably like at least a foot long and but the scariest thing about it was its girth. It was just outrageous it was outrageous. It was probably like as as wide as like a I I literally don't know what to compare it to like a it was like maybe it was maybe a foot around. It was insane. So oh my god so like a a big squash like a giant squash and the the thing that traumatized me about it was that it had gone rogue the color that it had turned from just being out there sort of left to its own devices it had just turned this sort of murky parts of it were this murky green and then parts of it were this crazy orange color. And I was just like I have I literally didn't even want to touch it. I was like I don't know it was insane.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Was it like you know how cucumbers get really gross once they turn and are become like mushy and soft? Was this still like taut and firm or I didn't touch it.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

So I don't know. I mean it was it held itself enough for Tom to like present it to me in the house and be like what have I found back there like behind a bunch of leaves it was oh it was so horrifying. So just be careful. But that's like very conventional cucumbers.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

So you guys did not slice that up we didn't put it in a nice battery turned into some kind of tempura situation.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

No we were like I was like get that thing of my nightmares out of here I always fantasize about having like really yeah like little Persian cucumbers or something like that because I think that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

But Tom has never found I love Kirby cucumbers too I'm I was thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

He's grown those and that's been fun we've pickled those and that's fun to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

What's been your big biggest gardening success?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I mean for a while he we've had a lot of success with kale which really is fun to like that feels like one of those practical things from the garden where like especially in this old garden I was thinking they'd like last through the winter and like keep on growing in the you know in the spring and in the fall they they just they were like you couldn't kill them. They were great. Wow um and that felt so practical because you literally could be like oh what's the vegetable for dinner and then be like oh I'll just make some kale like it felt very no nonsense. In our garden now he grows a lot of chard which works for some reason works really well in the garden. That's really great. Right now because we may not be around that much this summer he's gone all in on lettuce so we have a lot of lettuce out there that I'm very planted everything. Oh yeah. Well because we might not be around he's like and he was very sad about that he was like maybe we should plant some lettuce like like go all in on the spring garden. So he like starts it with grow lights like in the basement.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Oh so everything is from seed.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah. Okay. Yeah no he's that's really impressive. Yeah it's impressive he's very he's very dedicated to it and the the lettuces are actually really he I think he's growing like arugula which is always the best to have like just to cut it and wash it and eat it is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Well and this is the thing too I like asparagus is one of my favorite vegetables and I'm willing to eat it kind of all year long because I like it that much. Right. But then I get to the farmer's market and get a bunch of that like just picked asparagus and I'm like whoa God this is delicious. And so different from the where whatever the stuff is that comes from Mexico or South America or whatever. And arugula I mean I just because I I eat so much salad and so many greens I I get those big bins of like the baby arugula that kind of taste like wood chips and I'm fine with it. And I think it's great all year long. And then this time of year I get some like just picked arugula I'm like what is this? It's so peppery and so good.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Nothing better.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Makes me so excited.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah it's it might be the best thing that Tom grows um because it it is especially because I think he I think you can have different varieties that like the supermarket or even the farmer's market may not even carry because it's so delicate. Oh yeah like he planted this kind that I had never seen before. It has like sort of a bigger leaf and it's and it's kind of softer the texture's a little bit softer and the flavors a little bit milder but it still has that little bit of a bite. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

So I and does do you do you guys let it grow to like mature leaves or do you cut them when they're like because baby lettuces are just like baby you know like they they're cut when they're really young, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah. I was just saying to Tom the other day is I was like you have to keep reminding me that there's food out there because I I'm I'm like at the grocery store and I'm like oh buy some broccoli buy some cabbage whatever I'm sort of normally just stocking up on and I sometimes just forget that there's stuff in the garden. So we kind of pick it when we remember it. Okay. Um and again he's growing it for sort of the love of growing stuff so I need to be better about trying to remember that it's out there. So we sometimes pick it I guess when it's young sometimes we pick it when it's old either way fresh lettuce from the garden is like a whole different game changer product. And it's amazing. You do have to wash it really well.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Okay all right good to know I'm gonna have to get a salad spinner.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

You're gonna have to get a salad spinner. You're gonna have to get a salad spinner and it's there's gonna be a lot of weird stuff in there.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah but that's okay. I'm just reading something that um fresh vegetables actually have more nutrients like the fresher they are the more nutrients there are in the makes so much sense. So all this all the stuff we're getting from California and wherever actually has like depleted nutrient levels.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

I mean you can kind of taste that I'm sure you can yeah just in the vibrancy.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah there's something really strongly flavored about stuff that just comes right out of the garden in this pleasant way. But tomatoes are probably my favorite thing to grow. I know yeah for sure it's just there's nothing like them. There's nothing like them. And the kids think it's so fun to pick I mean everyone loves to pick tomatoes. I mean we all like argue over who gets to pick them.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Well and growing them too I learned this last year because the ours grew so well it's like I mean I I go to the farmer's market and you end up spending 30 bucks on a couple tomatoes because they're they're really expensive. And I mean I I appreciate that's totally valid that they're that expensive for you know the all the handling and all the time and all that stuff. But um when you can grow them yourself and they're like warm off the vine and it's like this was just a four dollar plant and now I have all these tomatoes.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

It's so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah yeah yeah do you have any creatures up there?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

No. You know there's like bugs. Nothing so far that's caused any damage to the plants. I think that's good. I read somewhere that birds will get into things and so one of the tricks is like tying aluminum foil around the like trellisy stuff.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

That seemed to work but um I mean I think one of the advantages of a roof garden is that you're pretty removed from yeah the the the ground critters yeah yeah rats get into the garden I'm sure they do yeah oh yeah definitely squirrels yeah yeah and they they just kind of mess around they don't really eat stuff they just they just to ruin things but yeah could be worse I guess I have noticed that Susan our dog she likes to get into the little planter boxes and I'm like you better stay out of that once once we have our plants in there for real what does she do on the can she go up there on the roof?

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Yeah I mean it's it's the roof was made was like permitted to be oh great oh so there's like a ledge and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Yeah yeah yeah it's all protected. Oh good oh that's fun.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Yeah it's I mean it's amazing it's the most amazing thing that's when I just can't get enough of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah oh that's so great. Oh one thing that we do do every year which is really fun is like we'll get like some basil plants and by the end of the summer they're really gangbusters and then we make like pesto for the whole year. And that's like a that's like an annual event and I love that.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Yes I want to do that because I the basil was crazy that just like took off and if you I we should have Tom on to give some of his tips because maybe I can just set up time to hang out with Tom I want to learn all these things about how to like properly prune stuff so that it grows. Yeah. Because there are I mean there's a lot of knowledge in it.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

There's a lot of knowledge in it. His grandparents were big big gardeners and he was like very much at their sort of knee doing stuff with them so he learned a lot of that stuff. And I think it is it is like yeah I I can't remember what any of the rules are but like pruning tomatoes I think there's all sorts of you know clipping certain leaves below the fruit and I don't know how that works. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

And then like pluck in the early blooms to encourage later blooms or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Yeah yeah I don't know either. And it's the say again and you can get the same you can scratch the same itch with like CSAs or farmers markets or whatever but it there's something is something really fun about like making produce like really focusing on it in that way.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

You do feel like it's this precious thing and that does make it really oh completely and it just cultivates an appreciation for all the work that you know because living in New York I'm never going to be able to grow all my food. Right. It's really just kind of a hobby thing and getting some seasonal treats but yeah it develops a real appreciation for what goes into eating all that food that we do. Oh yeah that does like actually sustain us all year long. Yeah oh definitely what's uh what's your plan for dinner tonight? Gonna have any arugula or kale or anything from the garden now that that's top of mind.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Probably should. I did make actually I made this thing last night we may just have leftovers um based on your um soupy orzo concept that you've talked about before I made some made some white beans and cooked some didalini in like the bean broth. I had some chicken broth that I had just made added some dittolini grated in some zucchini um some parmesan like sauteed an onion first. It was pretty yummy. Oh and then at the end I stirred in some pesto from last year's harvest which I just like keep in the freezer like little deli containers of it and it was really good and everybody liked it and I was and it truly was like a one pot meal. I mean it was very like it was also very satisfying use of all these various homemade elements where I was like get to put them all in one pot. But it was it was good. So great idea. Oh good yeah but maybe with a salad on the side okay yeah yeah yeah we haven't we haven't tried any of the stuff in the garden yet so that will be sort of a fun fun day.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

I just made a big pot of I got these black chickpeas in my last bean club delivery have you ever had those before I've heard about them but I've never made them I mean I don't they taste like normal chickpeas but they're black to me at least maybe there's a slight difference in flavor. That'd be interesting to do them side by side but I cooked a bunch of them in the slow cooker which is such a good way to cook beans. It's just a good way hands off happens while you sleep they're perfectly cooked. Yes really delicious and so I have a bunch of those now in the fridge and I was thinking I don't know what I'm gonna do with them for dinner tonight. Maybe something soupy orzo. Maybe some soupy orzo but I'm a little worried that they're gonna turn an unappetizing color with the black chickpeas yeah what is are they black even when they're cooked? They're black yeah and like the I mean the the beans liquor is it's like black beans. Oh really okay oh yeah maybe it'll be some some sort of soup I haven't figured it out yet when in when in doubt it's like I just made for breakfast I just took some of these beans and then threw some scrambled eggs on there put a handful of greens and it was like that was perfect. So I'll just do that again.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

That sounds great. Okay well enjoy your dinner enjoy your weekend thanks you too and we'll just talk soon okay sounds good okay bye bye