Does Lukas Hate Lentils?

Welcome to SALT PIG! Buckle your seatbelts everyone, because we are about to break the biggest scandal this side of the East River. Or at least in SALT PIG history, in all three months of its existence. Lukas—cookbook writer extraordinaire, vegetable whisperer, bean club acolyte—has a thing AGAINST lentils. WHaaat? But don’t despair! We break down many ways these sometimes-chalky pulses can be prepared and we dissect the root of his ambivalence. Will he find a lentil dish he truly craves? Will Ellie recover from her shock? Listen and find out!

Discussed in this episode:

• Table Manners episode featuring Kristin Scott Thomas
• Mujaddara/mujadra/mujadarah/mejadra recipes from Ottolenghi, from Hot Date! by Rawan Alkhatib, from Naz Derivian
• Fagioli: The Bean Cuisine of Italy by Judith Barrett, and recipe for Pasta con Lenticchi
• Deb Perelman’s My Favorite Lentil Salad
• Catherine Newman’s Red Lentil Falafel

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Salt Pig. We are two cookbook writers chatting about the ups and downs of actual home kitchen life. Lucas, what are we talking about this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Today we are talking about lentils and um a love hate relationship I have with them, but turns out it's mostly love. We salads and soups, the sort of pitfalls and the secrets to making them taste really good.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Yeah, I I truly feel inspired to go cook some lentils. Me too. Yeah, I'm um and I'm gonna buy some kind of nice lentils, I think. You can find new and old episodes wherever you listen to podcasts, and check us out on Substack at saltpig.substack.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, which these days is coming out weekly.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yes. And also if you are enjoying this podcast, and if you don't mind doing us a quick favor, we would really appreciate if you could rate us in uh Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening to them. Um that really does help bring a little bit more visibility to what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Oh yeah. And if you happen to have like a friend who might enjoy it, we're in the stage where we're trying to spread the word. So we really appreciate it. All right, let's get started. I can't remember if it was in the last episode or the episode before it, but what I was talking about my bread box. It might have just been. Yes, food storage. That was the last one. Yeah. Um, and like extolling all its virtues and I love it. You found on the street. Yeah, exactly. I found it on the street. It's great, still love it. Um, but I did go in like uh practically like I feel like I jinxed myself, and I've been jinxing myself a lot lately, um, somehow. But it was like right after we had that conversation, and then I went to the bread box where I had like I've been making double batches of sourdough because it's sort of easier and we go through it really fast. And I had the second loaf in there, which I am sort of maybe pushing the timeline a little bit. It was probably like at least five days old. So maybe that's just too old for a sourdough.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Yeah, okay. You but sorry, not to do you not freeze your bread?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Well, now I think I'm gonna find it. Well, you don't have room in your freezer either. I don't have room in my freezer. Though I maybe should just make room because I was like, well, here's what happened. So I opened this, the kids and I were like, mmm, time for some toast, like some after school toast. And I went into the bread box and it was um the entire loaf of bread was just covered in mold. Like fuzzy green mold. And it was like, and it was such a downer because it's like homemade bread. And it's like you know how much time. Yeah, exactly. And the kids were like, What? And Henry was like, Can you cut it off? And I was like, It's too much. It's like it's like gone too deep.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Usually, yes, but yeah, I'm like, normally maybe a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Um, I was like, so it was it was literally like practically an entire loaf of bread that I just like put in the compost, and we were all just like walking past the compost, you know, like the little one on my counter, just like sighing about it. We had like no other bread in the house. It was such a downer.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Oh, that's such a bummer.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

God, nothing gives you an appreciation for that type of food as when it's homemade. Like, I don't know. I try not to waste any bread or anything if I like buy it at a bakery or buy it at the store, but when you make it yourself and then it goes to waste, it's just like devastating. It's so devastating.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I know. I know. So now I think I mean I'm still gonna use my bread box, still love the bread box, but maybe it's just for one loaf and maybe the other loaf I slice and put in the freezer or something.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah. I wonder too, I mean, I've always found that an airtight, I don't know if your bread box is like airtight, but I mean I didn't really think it was because it's a little wonky. But it's a bread box too.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

So it was also during that heat wave last week where it was like 85 degrees and super humid. So I that probably didn't. But because when you said you keep your bread on the counter, I was like, um I thought that was fascinating. Like how how fast do you guys go through a loaf of bread?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Usually like two, three days. Okay. Um and I'll if it's like a big loaf, I put half of it in the freezer. Yeah. I slice it up, put it in a zip top bag and throw it in the freezer, and then just straight from the freezer into the toaster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah. That's what I've got to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Yeah. Oh, that's sad.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I know. Especially because I have to say, ever since our sourdough episode, not to keep referencing ourselves here, but uh since the sourdough episode with all of the tweaks that we talked about, my sourdough is like so rocking.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Oh, that's great. I know. There's also this is the best. I mean, it doesn't really make sense because you think of like cold weather for being when you want to be baking bread, but the heat makes that sourdough starter just come to life and like the bread rises so much better and faster.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I know.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Um, it's really a great time to be baking.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Oh my gosh, it's great. And I've I've somehow like it's sort of for worse in a way, I've usurped the discard. I I now just keep like the tiniest little bit in my fridge, then I build the whole starter I need with a little extra, bake with that, and then just put the jar right back in the fridge. So I actually just somehow don't have any discard anymore.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

It's kind of weird. Like I'm never like feeding it more than once. Yeah. Because it's so strong right now. Maybe in the winter I'll have to do that. But I don't have to like really revive it.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Oh, that's great. So there's you're not pouring off like a cup of it in order to Yeah, exactly. Great.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

So And you probably sounds like you're living in a a a thriving bakery, right? You know, like you're just turning them in and out.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

I mean, it's still very involved, but yeah. But it is it is so satisfying. Like the I think it was really um the shaping that I really needed to rein in, and it's it seems like it makes a big difference. So good.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

And then also the um when to when to incorporate the sourdough di uh when it's ripe. When it's ready to be big.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

That I think was huge. Yeah. Yeah. And the switching maybe to all bread flour, I think also gave it a little initiative.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Gluten really helps like the higher protein flour, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. So anyway. Good.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah, yeah. But it was a sad, a sad moment.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Today we uh are uh we're talking about lentils, which like food storage, I know is gonna be a topic that we have a lot more to say than we even realize. It's a hot topic. But um, it just so happened that this morning I was do you listen to that podcast Um Table Manners?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

It's with Oh, is it English?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

It's it yeah, Jessie Ware, who is a pop singer that I don't know, she's particularly popular among gay men and especially the like geriatric millennial sect such as myself. She's like she started out with this album of sort of like soothing balads, and now she's gone like kind of disco and dancing. Oh, fun. And she's been doing this podcast for years with her mom, and they cook lunch for a guest and then have a conversation, and it's always so good and and fun. And they're like funny and smart and really savvy cooks, and then it's like they're very gifted at guiding a conversation with somebody.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Oh, I love and I love the multi-generational aspect of that too.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

That mom-daughter dynamic is just amazing. But um, in this most, I think it's the most recent episode or which it was in my queue, Kristen Scott Thomas was the guest, and she was talking about the lentil salad that she just made. And Jesse was kind of probing to get more information about it. So she asked what kind of lentils. She's like, brown, black, green lentils. Uh, and then Kristen Scott Thomas said, Pui, puy, puy. And I was like, oh my God, I have been mispronouncing these lentils for my entire life. I thought it was lentils du pie. Oh? How embarrassing is nobody's ever corrected me.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And then I guess how often does that come up, also?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

It never does. In fact, I always have to Google even how to properly spell it. It's just like something that won't stick in my brain. But I was walking home from the gym and I was like, I mean, how fun that Kristen's got Thomas is the one to teach me this lesson. And now now we know.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Thank you, Kristen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

But she was like, she was talking about this lentil salad, and I just love all she grew up in Paris. And I love how like it first off, it doesn't sound like she's all that into food, but then she sort of breaks down how she creates her vinaigrette, and it's very, very detailed. And then like this lentil salad, the puy, puy, puy. It was like just a little bit of finely chopped celery, just this much. And I'm just like imagining like two inches of like chopped celery stock in this lentil salad. And anyway, it's just like so fun to hear people talk about food.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Oh my God, it's so fun. I mean, this is basically why I have the job that I have. Because I'm like, I want to talk to anybody and everybody. Like, if you're a celebrity, if you're Joe Schmoe, whoever, I want to be like, how much celery do you put in your lentil salad? Like, let's get into it, you know? So it's so it's so fun to like be like, this is this little fact that I know about you.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah. And yeah, I'm just like the way I cook too. I'm like, maybe this is something in my American nature. I'm like, if you're gonna put celery in your lentil salad, at least a whole stock. I mean, just like big chunks, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Right. But this does this does segue very well into the fact that when we were first talking about this episode, I was like, we were like, oh, should we do another bean episode or something? And then we were like, oh, maybe lentils specifically. And then you dropped the bomb that like echoed throughout the world. I was like shaken to my core where you were like, Well, like in this very nice sort of, you know, kind of quiet way. You were like, I don't really love lentils that much. And I was like, you don't love lentils that much. I was like shocked.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Is it just that I seem so much like a lentil person, or is it that my line of work, or is it because lentils are considered like beloved?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Everything. It's I guess it's not that lentils are necessarily beloved, but I was like, you of all people in terms of like you have this vegan and vegetarian like like world that you've created that like includes so I mean maybe I haven't like maybe there's an omission of lentils in your in your like there is not.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I continue to cook with them.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, I mean you talk about lentils all the time, but I was like, it I it was I was shaken. And I'm so I want to hear all the details, all the sort of hot goss about it because um because I was I was just like I I is it all lentils, is just some lentils.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

How deep is this just like or is it Well, I guess like I so I did not grow up eating lentils. That's like something that came in adulthood for sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

And it's not that I guess it's it's not like I hate lentils, and I'll definitely like eat them if they're there and I do cook with them, but primarily from a place of like these are really good for me. Yeah. And so that's why I and they're like cheap and a good protein in that way. I feel like part of the problem is just that like it's so rare that I cook them exactly as I want them. Like they're either undercooked, which is death for my digestive system, or overcooked and mushy and not that good.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I've I mean there's definitely exceptions, and there's a bunch of recipes that I have made that I do like, but they just I don't know, and and it I feel like they're a lot harder to to cook than people give them credit for.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I think that's I think that's true. I mean, when I was thinking about recipes and dishes that I make for this, I was like, it does seem like a lot of lentil recipes are kind of cook them until they're mush and then do something with them. Um yeah. And I think that's because it's easy to cook them until they're mush, it's kind of harder to cook them where they have some sort of texture. And part of it's also the type of lentil, like the lentil dupuy, I guess, is the one.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Those are the like black caviar, they're also called like the well, I think there's like the black uh very beluga is what is I've always said in my mind, but I have no confidence right now. Um I think they're a different one. There's like the black caviar beluga lentils and then the dupuis, which are the green or they're dark green. And they're like smaller in shape and like round.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

They hold their shape more. They're they're like the black ones in that they hold their shape more, but they're green. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I guess it's like also you go out to a restaurant where there are lentils, and when they're perfectly cooked and perfectly seasoned and have more than just that sort of earthy virtuousness about them. There's like uh then I feel like, oh, I do want to eat this all the time. This is delicious. And but I've never really cracked like what's the secret to those. Did you ever make the ones um there was a recipe that went around years ago for uh at Bouvette in New York City from their cookbook like with kale, I think.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

No.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

It seemed like the secret for those was like tons of olive oil and then plenty of salt.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah. And let's be honest, I mean, that is the secret to all being cookery. And I guess pulses and other are these pulses, I think.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Lentils are pro as far as I understand, yeah, they're pulses.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah, yeah. But it's yeah, lots of oil and salt, I guess, can't hurt. I mean, lentils I would not say are my favorite food, certainly. The sort of most common, like just the good old brown lentil, I feel like doesn't it is really earthy, doesn't seem to have a ton of texture. It's flavor's a little muddy.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

It's not yeah, there's a dryness in it too, that like it's not an appealing mouthfeel.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, it's sort of cakey inside. Yeah. No, it's true. I do think most of the ways in which I like lentils are they're like suspended in some sort of liquid. I mean lentil soup, obviously, like that's probably the most common thing that I do with lentils, is just like especially with like red lentils or something like that. Like delicious and the texture is appealing and it and the color's pretty.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

So that all I kind of think of the split lentils, like the split peas and the red lentils as a different category.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

They're kind of different, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Because they and the way they cook too is basically a puree diet. You they don't hold on to any of their structural integrity.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

It's true. It's true. And in a way, yeah, I kind of like them for that in like a soup context, it's great. But yeah, I didn't I other things I was thinking about, like uh or a soup that I do like to make, um but it's the lentil's not really the star. Is have you ever made um this Persian soup called, I'm gonna really butcher it, Ash Rasta? No, I'm not familiar with this. I wrote it down Ash Resta. I'm sure please correct me, um, if anyone knows how to properly spell that. But it's a it's a um Persian soup that's like a bunch of different mixed beans, often including lentils, with like spinach and herbs and these little noodles in it. Oh I do I have these different toppings. Okay. There used to be this place, I wonder if you ever went to it, it was like uh maybe in like the nineties or the early 2000s. There was this pizza place in Chelsea, and in the back of the pizza place there was or I guess inside the pizza place, like definitely part of the pizza place, was this guy who this Persian guy who was selling these Persian foods. It was like right near Union Square. Oh no, I think I think he used to s maybe sell stuff at like the Union Square Farmers Market. Um, but then he found this space in this pizza place where he would just have this little sort of pop-up thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

It was so cool, and it was like, you know, it was a long it was long enough ago that you're like Persian food. Like this isn't something that you're just getting around New York City necessarily all the time. And so it was like probably my f one of my first experiences with Persian food, and I used to work near there like in my twenties. Um so once in a while as a special treat, I'd go into the pizza place and get like a little cup of this soup. And it was so fun because it's like this very, you know, lentil and beans and noodles and sort of a really interesting veggie, you know, forward soup. But then you put these like fried onions on it, you put dried mint on it, and you put this dairy thing, which I think in retrospect is like some sort of whey product, but I think you could use like yogurt or whatever. But it was like each bite you could definitely make a little tiny special bite with all these little, you know, different bits in it, and it was amazing and I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

And what's the sort of dominant flavor profile of it?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I'd say it's like herby and earthy and spinach-y. It's like it's you know, is there an acid component? There must have been I mean, this yogurt or this whey thing, it has kind of a sour vibe a little bit, um, I think because of maybe the I don't know. It's like a pr pr pretty straightforward bean soup concept, but part of it was so fun to have all this little s little bits on top of it. So I've tried to make that, but it wasn't as good as this. Yeah, I mean that sounds delicious.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I'm gonna look that up.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, yeah, no, it was really good.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Do you ever make um one lentil dish that I do actually really love is uh Mujadara?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Oh yes. That was on that list too.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Oh the rice and lentils and the fried onions and oh my god, it's that's that's real comfort food.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

It is real comfort food, and I love the fried onions as the I mean that's seems like anything with like really deep, dark fried onions on top is like truly comforting to me.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

But um what kind of a recipe do you follow when you make that?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Uh it's been a while since I've made it, so I don't know, I don't think I have any details. What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 18:04

I made one the most recent I think was from this excellent cookbook called Hot Date. And it was a Mujadara it made a ton. Um I was like eating that for days. Um and uh it had dates in it, in addition to like all the onions and stuff. Um and it was really good. And but I feel like prior to that I'd just done it pretty simply. Like one of the things I feel like that I that a number of recipes try to accomplish with that dish is turning it into a one-pot affair. Yeah. Um, which can be done, but it's kind of better if you cook the lentils and the rice separately.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Oh, really? Do you find that I remember making it together, but I think uh it sounds so like me that I'm pretty sure that I just forced it to be a one-pot thing, even if it wasn't at its prime as a one-pot thing. Okay. I'm just like good enough. But yeah, yeah, I mean, it does and there's so there's something so appealing about them kind of swimming together in some liquid and then coming. I mean, it's impossible to get. What kind of lentils do you use? Because it's pretty hard to like if you're using like basmati rice, I mean that's cooks pretty quickly. So you can like start the lentils ahead.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Um Yeah, well that's the thing. I think there's like an Otolingi recipe for this that I had made many years ago that was really good. Um and I don't think it was a one-pot thing. Yeah but um I've always used the like brown lentils, not the Dupuis, but like the um the flatter ones that kind of break down a little bit, you know, or get rather than like the nuttiness, they integrate in lentil. Yeah. I'm not describing this very well.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

No, they do I mean well that's why I'm I find it interesting the idea of cooking them separately, because part of me feels like the part of the dish that makes it kind of interesting is that they do like the lentils sort of give off this sort of m murky muddiness, the sort of sediment that then gets kind of incorporated into the rice that actually in that case seems sort of appealing.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. It's like uh it's just a timing issue on the recipe. It's a timing issue. But a part of what makes that so good is the onions are yeah, I I don't take them like full caramelized and I crank up the heat a little bit more so they still actually have a little bit of like crunch in them. Yes. But then they've got a bunch of like searing on them and they're so good that way. I mean and then the spices I wish I had made I should have tried to make this as maybe I'm gonna have this for dinner tonight. This would be good. But um like the cinnamon and cumin.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, and warm spices.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

All the yeah, all the warm spices, and then I always would put a bunch of yogurt on top of it.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

It has to have yogurt, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that sounds delicious. It's funny, like onions like that. I feel like I feel like no one talks about fried onions. Like people are always talking about caramelized onions, which I I have nothing against caramelized onions, they're yummy. But there's something really appealing to me about fried onions where they're not sweet and jammy. They're more, yeah, like sharp and savory. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

And like And like forkable.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah. And the idea that they're like some maybe almost kind of burnt. And um, and yeah, they still have a little texture to them. I mean, that is delicious. I have this weird food memory of my sister once I don't know why this would have happened, but my sister's, you know, seven years older than I am. So I remember her once making me maybe she was like babysitting and I got hungry or something. So she was like, I'll make you a fried onion sandwich. And it was literally like some fried onions. So that that, you know, oily Deep, dark brown, but not soft sort of texture.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Have some some body as a sandwich filling.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, and then this happens weirdly also to just just be like in a buttered pita, but it was delicious. It was like, you know, 40 years later, I'm still like, that was a great sandwich, Liz.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Was there anything else in there besides that?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

No. But I was like, yeah, I do want a fried onion sandwich during south.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Wow. Well, like part of in Mujidara, part of the appeal is that it gives body to the dish, right? Caramelized onions kind of melt into it, but fried onions. And w what we're talking about is different from like a crispy fried onion or a frizzled onion.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

It's still like wet.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yes. Yes. And kind of greasy. And greasy and yummy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's that's definitely a lentil dish I can I get behind. This morning in a panic, I was like, Do I have enough to say about lentils? So I like was rummaging through my sort of bean, the bean zone in my pantry, and I found some brown lentils, and I was like, what can I do with these quick to like taste something to have something to talk about? Um and then so I made this sort of uh I kept I've been reading about how people make like like lentil bolognese. And I'd promised the kids this morning that I'd make them pasta and we couldn't decide. It was like, I don't know why I asked the kids for their opinions on this stuff. I'm like, what are your top two pastas that you want to have for dinner? And then it's like, of course, I'm like, none of these are really convenient for me to make, so I'm just gonna be disappointing you guys. Um they're like lemon pasta and tomato sauce, and I'm like, nope, nope, we're not gonna do that. Um Here's what I want to make as well. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for all the input and not using any of it. But I was like, oh, I could make a lentil boulevard, it's not anything close to what they asked for, but um but I was like that would be sort of fun to try. So I did make one and I haven't, it's not like fully, fully finished, but I took a bite of it right before we started recording, and it's pretty good. Okay. So what's in it?

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Is it t like tomato sauce then and cooked down veggies?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah, I like cooked down onion, celery, I had a pepper kicking around, uh, some garlic, added the lentils, added some I like, and I was trying to really actually like I was like, if I'm gonna make this good and if everyone's gonna get into it, I have to like do sort of the extra extra steps. So I like added some wine and I added some bay leaves and I added some fennel seeds and what else? Yeah, tomatoes and cooked it down. So I'm hoping it's gonna be good. When I tasted it like while it was still cooking, it had sort of a chili vibe, which is not what I was really going for. But um I'm hoping that that's gonna with a little grated cheese and some pasta, that's gonna dissipate a little.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Yeah, maybe a little bit more olive oil or something too.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, yeah. I think that's right. Yeah, maybe that would give it sort of more sauce, sauce vibes.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

And then so you're gonna spoon that over some cooked pasta.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Okay. Yeah. That reminds me of um a dish I made a couple years ago. Uh, because lentils and pasta doesn't intuitively make sense to me, but I know there's a ton of tradition behind that. But I this dish I came across in a book that Rancho Gordo actually reissued called Um Fajoli.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

The um about the it's got his uses the phrase bean cuisine, the bean cuisine of Italy. And it's actually a book that he reissued that had gone out of print and then um issued it through like the Rancho Gordo company. But it's um pasta con lenticci, it's just like pasta and lentils, and I had made that. It's very, very simple. You just um cook your lentils, season them super well. This is a lentils always like if there's not enough salt in there, they're no they're really not going to be enjoyable to get it.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

They really will just taste like mud.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah, and so I think the lentils are cooked with like some bay leaf and a little garlic, and um you cook them in plenty of water so that it's not like because that sometimes there's methods for cooking lentils where it's almost like cooking rice where you d there's not really like liquid liquid left over in it in the pan. I don't know that I have a strong view about that, but in this instance there's water left in the pan and you reserve some of it. So you cook the lentils, you season them really well. There's some olive oil, some bay leaf, some garlic, some chili flakes, I think. And then separately, I think traditionally this dish was a way to use up the scraps of like homemade taggedelle. So it's like little broken up pieces of pasta. So then you cook the pasta and then you put in the lentils and some of the reserved broth and like combine the two on the on the stove top, and it's quite good. It's very it's similar to uh Mujidaret, has strong comfort food vibes.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

And it's just and it's so it sounds so like austere, you know, but it's um it's actually quite quite rich and comforting.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Oh yeah. Uh you know, I mean, the Italians, they really got a handle on that stuff. It's like if you add enough like olive oil and if you're really yeah, if you season it really well, it's like how can that be bad?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

It's all about the attention. Yeah. It's like prop making sure that things are properly seasoned.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

I know.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Trying not to rush the process. Yeah, I think that's and because otherwise it's just pasta and lentils, and somehow it tastes incredible.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna try that. That sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

I think um Rancho Gordo, he had these special lentils from Puglia.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

And they were like a similar shape with the roundness of the Dupuis lentils and the beluga lentils, but um a a sort of chestnutty brown color.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Sounds great. I mean, a special lentil has got to be really special. Like that sounds awesome, you know? Because again, like it I just had like these random I mean, it's nothing against just a supermarket brown lentil, but they do they I feel like the texture isn't there, that's sort of that muddiness. I don't know. So having like a really special one, especially if you're gonna use like, you know, put it in a salad or something like that, like you really do want to get that texture right. Maybe cooking them like pasta, like in an excess of water is one way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

I mean, I definitely think that's an easier way to control for the texture. I did start cooking lentils with um a big ol' scoop of better than bouillon paste to season them. Do you ever do that?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

I mean, in the water with the lentils. Oh yeah. Oh, just so it's they're basically like cooking in broth.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

That sounds great. I know I haven't had it.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

It's good.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah. I mean, how bad can that be? Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Um and I if it kind of helped to give that depth of flavor that sometimes, I mean, maybe is is my issue with lentils.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

It always comes down to the seasoning with beans, I think.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Right. But that's a really good tip because they are, I mean, obviously they're absorbing a ton of that. So if they're absorbing something a little tastier than just water or salted water, that will help. Okay. I'm gonna try that sometime.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Do you do many like lentil salads? Or enjoy lentils in cold formats?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

I have enjoyed a lentil salad here and there. In fact, that feels more a little bit more exciting to me. I think because again, I'm maybe paying more attention to how like to getting the cook right than when I'm just like tossing them in soup or tossing them in some brothy thing where they I'm trying to get it. Yeah, eventually, yeah, exactly where they get broken down. Um I think it's Deb Perlman has on Smitten Kitchen has a recipe that I've at least sort of riffed on where it's like I guess it's sort of like a cowboy caviar kind of take, where it's like lentils with I think she even uses like a jar of salsa or something. But then she adds like tomatoes and chopped onions and uh all raw tomatoes and onions. Um I should look up the recipe itself, but I think I added like cukes and that kind of stuff, but it was it was almost like uh you could eat it with like tortilla chips, and I was like, that sounds pretty appealing to me. Like a spoonable or chipable um salad that has a little protein in it sounds fun.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah, totally. Um Do you find so going back to where we began this conversation? Do you find that they're hard to cook like perfectly?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I mean, this gets to sort of the crux of me as I'm like, I'm like, have I ever cooked them perfectly? Probably not. You know? I'm sort of like, can I eat them? Yeah. I so so I don't know. They do take a while to cook. For being such a teeny tiny bean or pulse, they do like take longer to cook. Like when I went down to check this tomato sauce, I was like very much expected them to be cooked through, and I was like, oh no, they're not they're not cooked through yet.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

And what kind of lentils are they in the tomato sauce? Those are just brown. Just brown ones, the flatter ones.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

But even when they like, you know, they've like sucked up all the liquid and they've gotten bigger and yeah, they're still just there's just a little bit of bite in them that's a little too much.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

So yeah, I don't know what my pro I I don't know what my problem is. It's just to get them to cook evenly, you know, like sometimes some of them start to fall apart and then other ones aren't all the way cooked through. And just like an undercooked bean is something I'm actually like afraid of. I really like don't want to ever have to eat that. And so I'm probably paranoid about this when I'm cooking lentils. Yeah, so I don't know. I I do think that like the pasta style of cooking is a lot more even and more veil-safe than the steaming method.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

I think I think if you actually are just focusing, just saying, I'm just gonna cook the beans, as opposed to I'm uh I'm like putting it in a sauce where I'm like, is everything else ready? Hopefully they'll get ready at the same time. Like it might be better to concentrate. The one thing I think that's so nice about lentils, I guess, is that it can go in like all these different cuisine directions. Actually, we haven't talked about Indian lentils, which I do not cook my lentils in an Indian way usually. I do with like, I guess if we're if we're taking like split peas out, um I don't I don't cook just like regular brown lentils in an Indian way. I don't know if you do.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

I cook with red lentils somewhat frequently just because I I sort of like those and yeah, yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Or like the yellow split peas and stuff, but I guess that's kind of out of scope here.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit different from but what are like the classic? I was just trying to think of trying to diagnose my uh relationship with lentils, and I was like, what are you seeing like at uh Frenchy type restaurants, it'll be like lentils with sausage on top or with like a like what crispy salmon is. Yeah, or a big like yeah, exactly. And I and then I was thinking of this pasta dish, the Italian pasta dish, or um like that French salad that Kristen Scott Thomas described with the celery and the puy, yeah. Um that I think that like the comma denominator here is like a heavy-handedness with the richness.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. I mean, one thing I love about those French lentil salads is how sharp the like vinaigrette or sort of sauce that you can make with it, where you're like cooking, you know, some puy lentils or those black caviar lentils or um something like that. And then yeah, I love having that like strong mustard flavor in there. Yes. And cooked with like a you know, kind of strident tasting sausage or something like that, they can really take like a heavy hand with like spices or other condiments and stuff, which I kind of appreciate.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah, and there's something really satisfying about I don't know if you make your lentil salads this way, but putting the dressing on while they're still warm.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

So that they soak up. It's just I don't I mean, maybe that if there is alchemy to it, but it feels like the the thinking is that it really soaks up all those flavors in the dressing.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

And they're so delicious when they're warm and dressed like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

They are. They are. That's making me think I should make some like that soon. Because yeah, they're I mean, they are really they're convenient.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

They're cheap. They are, I mean, and very, very good for you. They're like fiber-wise. Incredible source of protein for plant protein.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

And then also like more so than other beans.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yeah. It's like super concentrated.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Oh. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yeah. I and I think this is why they're like a staple food around the world.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Well, I was thinking, I I saw some reps recipe recently. Oh, it was on Catherine Newman's Substack. Again, I keep she keeps putting recipes on there. Um, but it was making falafel, I think, with uh maybe red split are we calling are they split peas? No.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Just like bread lentils.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Red lentils, yeah. I think it was with those. Um, and she was saying, you know, because it's I do find those recipes really cool where you're soaking like a split lentil for like 24 hours and it gets soft enough that then you don't actually have to cook it in a liquid. You're can you know pan-fry it or deep fry it or whatever. But she made some kind of falafel with them that did look really cool, and I was like, that's kind of a fun, yeah, fun thing to think about.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Isn't that the traditional method with um falafel when you use chickpeas too? You soak them and blend them without cooking the beans.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

That's kind of fun to use.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Oh yeah. I remember one of my first cookbook editing jobs ever. I was working on Liana Chrysoff's book, um, and she's so good. Um, it was whole grains for a new generation, and she had a falafel recipe in that. And um I was editing the manuscript, and I remember writing like a note being like, Oh, like are these chickpeas like you haven't cooked the chickpeas? Like, thinking I was really clever to be like something really important here. Yeah, totally. I'm really pulling my weight here. And she was like, Yeah, you don't have to cook those to make falafel. And I was like, oh shoot. It's like I've got a long way to go.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Now we know.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah, now now I know.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Um are you gonna have the bolognese? Is it bolognese or bologna? Just when I mispronounce things, can I would love to just be corrected in the moment when Kristen Scott Thomas was teaching me how to pronounce Dupuis lentils. When I waited tables at this restaurant on the Upper East Side when I was in my twenties, it was like a French restaurant, and we had a salad ni soise on the menu. It was there was uh two women I was waiting on, and it was there was obviously a power dynamic where like one person was doing the other person a favor and the other person was trying to impress the other person. I think I mentioned the special of the salad ni sois, and she was like, he doesn't even know how to pronounce this salad. And it was it was like so rude that she really did it to my face. But then the overall effect of this was that now every time I say that salad, I'm paranoid that I'm mispronouncing it. So it's like you're not even gonna be able to like teach me how to now I'm just like aware that this is a minefield and like I don't know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Exactly. Oh, how awful.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

That's okay. I should have known, but it was a French restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

But well, and it doesn't seem it seems like that was quite a good pronunciation. I don't know. I don't know how to do it. I guess it's a both.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's the C with the thingy underneath.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah, I guess. But Niswa still seems pretty close. Seems certainly not correctable. It's not like you're saying like Nikos or something, like you didn't have to be.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

I guess so, yeah. And like French flair. They knew what I meant. So that's probably what matters the most. Yeah. But anyway, for dinner. Lentils dupe. Um I am actually kind of inspired to make some lentils. I had I'm gonna make some mujadara tonight for dinner. That sounds really good because it's kind of cold outside. We had this heat wave and now it's cold. I'm like, oh, that'll be really, really satisfying.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah. I think I think that's a great idea. Are you gonna are you gonna two-pot it or one-pot it?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

I'm gonna cross-reference that Otolengi recipe because I remember that being really good.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

And then I'm gonna cross-reference a few of them.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

And and maybe chart a path that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you are you gonna do you have your bolognese?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

We have the bolognese, we're all set. It's also I was like, gosh, starting dinner at this time, I was like, this is a habit I should definitely be in that I'm not in. Instead of like 5 30 being like panic. I was like, oh, I'm just gonna have this thing of bolognese on the stove top waiting for the ball.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

All you have to do is cook the pasta.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hopefully. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Oh, I'm sure it'll be delicious.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

I mean, how bad can it be? Right. It'll be dinner.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Okay, well, enjoy your nutritious, delicious lentil dinner.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Thank you. All right, great. Well, um, well let's just talk soon.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Okay, sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Until next time. Bye.